1995 Jason , Airielle & Tom Jezierney of Maui Electric Company  discussing Maui’s Energy Future

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Published on 06/07/1995 by Jason Schwartz

1995 Jason , Airielle & Tom Jezierney of Maui Electric Company  discussing Maui’s Energy Future – sitting at the Maui Arts & Cultural Center + JASON’s PLAN for Maui

Summary & Transcript

Renewable Energy and Utility Challenges in Maui

[00:11 → 10:49] Introduction and Background: Interview with Tom Jezierney, President of Maui Electric Company

  • The program is hosted by Airielle and Jason from the Maui Arts and Music Association.
  • Tom Jezierney, President of Maui Electric Company, is the featured guest discussing renewable energy and utility issues on Maui.
  • Jason shares his long-term experience with Maui Electric, starting in 1990, focusing on renewable energy ideas, including solar and wind.
  • Tom explains that solar energy, while appealing, currently cannot replace fossil fuel power plants due to:
    • Solar being not dispatchable (power generation depends on sunlight availability).
    • Solar power currently being more expensive per kilowatt-hour than fuel oil.
    • The necessity for firm power (reliable, on-demand power) for customers.
  • The power plant expansion at the Maalaea site is driven by the need to meet future demand, not current shortages.
  • The Integrated Resource Planning (IRP) process, mandated by the Public Utilities Commission (PUC), requires demand-side management (DSM) programs to promote energy conservation and efficiency.
  • Demand-side management involves encouraging customers to reduce or efficiently manage their energy consumption through incentives (e.g., solar water heaters, efficient lighting).
  • DSM programs face uncertainty due to customer participation rates; thus, utilities cannot fully rely on DSM to defer building new power plants.
  • Tom emphasizes that private sector initiatives (homeowners/businesses investing independently in solar) could significantly impact energy usage if costs are lowered and adoption increased.

[10:49 → 31:41] Barriers to Renewable Energy Adoption and Utility Perspective

  • Barriers to widespread solar and wind power adoption on Maui include:
    • Intermittency of renewable sources: Solar and wind are not firm power and require backup conventional power plants or expensive storage (batteries).
    • High cost of renewable technologies, especially photovoltaic (PV) systems, which are currently 2-3 times more expensive than fossil fuel generation.
    • Land availability and cost: Wind turbines and solar farms require significant land, which landowners may be reluctant to dedicate for long periods.
  • Utility-scale PV systems have been tested in Maui’s Research and Technology Park; however, these systems are among the lower performers compared to others tested nationally.
  • Tom notes that distributed renewable systems (installed at homes/businesses) do not require additional land and could reduce dependence on large centralized plants.
  • However, homeowners typically remain connected to the utility grid for reliability, paying minimum customer charges and energy fees even with solar installed.
  • The high upfront cost of a home PV system with battery backup (~$20,000-$25,000) is a significant barrier for many customers.
  • Tom suggests that large-volume purchases and economies of scale could reduce system costs considerably (e.g., from $25,000 down to $8,000-$9,000 if thousands of units are ordered).
  • If the private sector embraces renewable systems, it could reduce the need for expensive power plant expansions, thus stabilizing or slowing utility rate increases.
  • Residential energy use on Maui is gradually increasing (1-3% annual growth) despite more efficient appliances because households own more electric devices.

[31:41 → 55:04] Detailed Discussion on Photovoltaic Systems, Costs, and Incentives

  • Average household energy demand on Maui is about 600 kWh per month (~20 kWh/day), higher than some optimistic PV system sales literature suggested.
  • Maui’s current electricity rate is approximately 13.5 – 14 cents per kWh, expected to rise to 15-16 cents in the near future.
  • Demand-side management programs are expected to add 2-3 cents per kWh to rates.
  • Tom explains that solar hot water heating is a proven technology in Hawaii, but PV systems paired with thermal hot water systems (combined photovoltaic-thermal or PVT systems) could significantly improve payback periods.
  • The combined PV and thermal systems produce both electricity and hot water, improving overall energy efficiency.
  • Financing options such as 15- or 30-year loans at 8-10% interest were discussed; while immediate loan payments may not fully offset energy bill reductions, the long-term system value and home resale value benefits can make installations attractive.
  • Large commercial PV systems (e.g., 1 MW scale) are currently too expensive to be economically viable but could play a role in distributed generation in remote areas.
  • Dispersed generation (customer-owned PV systems in remote locations) is a model under consideration and pilot testing on Maui and the Big Island.
  • Tax incentives exist, including a 35% State of Hawaii tax credit and a 10% federal investment tax credit (ITC)for renewable energy systems, which significantly reduce net costs.
  • Tom stresses that renewable technologies are not currently competitive on a commercial scale, and utilities see them primarily as demonstration projects requiring further development.

[55:04 → 01:29:45] Introduction and Promotion of Entech Solar Concentrator Technology and Maui Arts and Music Association Initiative

  • Jason introduces Entech Incorporated, a Dallas-based company specializing in high-concentration photovoltaic solar technology utilizing linear Fresnel lenses.
  • This technology concentrates sunlight onto small solar cells, reducing the amount of expensive PV material needed and increasing overall system efficiency.
  • The Entech system also captures waste heat for solar thermal hot water, making it a combined photovoltaic-thermal (PVT) system.
  • The 300 kW demonstration system at the Dallas Fort Worth airport supplies electricity and hot water, showcasing commercial-scale application and grid integration.
  • The Entech system is noted for:
    • High efficiency and versatility.
    • Proven performance validated by US Department of Energy and Sandia National Laboratories.
    • Potential for economic competitiveness due to reduced PV material use.
  • Maui Arts and Music Association (MAMA) has arranged a special bulk purchase program with Entech offering the technology at prices below typical market rates.
  • Pricing for homeowners:
    • Current market individual system price: ~$9,800 for a 3.6 kW system.
    • Bulk order price (if 2,500+ homeowners commit): ~$5,900 per system.
  • After applying tax credits (35% state, 10% federal), the net cost could be as low as ~$3,800 per system.
  • These systems have a 30-year design life, providing long-term energy savings and potentially increasing property value.
  • The program aims to:
    • Promote renewable energy adoption on Maui.
    • Help reduce Maui Electric’s load growth and slow power plant expansions.
    • Support local economy diversification by creating jobs in renewable energy installation and manufacturing.
    • Enhance Maui’s position as a global model for renewable energy and ecotourism.
  • Jason encourages viewers to contact the Maui Arts and Music Association for more information and to express interest.
  • All proceeds and commissions from the program will be donated to MAMA to support environmental initiatives, arts, music, and cultural programs on Maui.
  • The program emphasizes community involvement, cooperation, and the alignment of renewable energy adoption with Maui’s unique cultural and environmental values.

Key Insights and Conclusions

  • Firm power and cost remain the primary barriers to utility-scale solar and wind adoption in Maui.
  • Demand-side management programs are necessary but insufficient alone to meet future energy needs.
  • Private sector investment in distributed renewable energy systems (especially PV with thermal) is critical to advancing renewable energy penetration.
  • Bulk purchasing and tax incentives can significantly reduce PV system costs, making them competitive with fossil fuel-based electricity.
  • Combined photovoltaic-thermal (PVT) systems offer greater efficiency and faster payback than PV alone.
  • Innovative technologies like Entech’s linear Fresnel lens concentrators provide promising avenues to reduce costs and increase adoption.
  • Community engagement and coordinated efforts through organizations like MAMA bridge energy, environmental, and cultural goals.
  • Maui’s renewable energy future depends on collaboration between utilities, private sector, government, and the public.

Timeline Table of Key Topics Covered

Timestamp Topic Summary
00:11 – 10:49 Introduction & Utility Perspective on Renewable Energy Solar not firm power, high cost, demand-side management, private sector role emphasized.
10:49 – 31:41 Barriers to Renewable Adoption Intermittency, economics, land cost, distributed generation, customer costs, growth in demand.
31:41 – 55:04 PV Systems, Rates, Incentives, and Demand Side Management Maui rates, energy use trends, combined PV-thermal benefits, loan financing, tax credits.
55:04 – 01:29:45 Entech Technology & MAMA Renewable Energy Initiative Concentrated PV technology, bulk pricing, tax credits, program goals, community benefits.

Quantitative Data Summary (PV System Costs and Energy Usage)

Item Value / Range Notes
Average Maui household energy use ~600 kWh/month (~20 kWh/day) Higher than some optimistic system assumptions
Maui electricity rate (1995) 13.5 – 14 cents/kWh Expected to rise to 15-16 cents/kWh
Demand-side management (DSM) rate increase 2-3 cents/kWh Additional cost expected for DSM programs
Individual PV system cost (market) $20,000 – $25,000 For 2-3 kW system with battery backup
Individual PV system cost (Entech bulk price) $5,900 (if 2,500+ orders) 3.6 kW system, combined photovoltaic-thermal
Individual PV system cost after tax credits ~$3,800 35% state + 10% federal credits considered
PV system design life 30 years Long-term durability
Residential energy use increase rate 1-3% annually Due to more appliances despite efficiency improvements

Glossary of Key Terms

Term Definition
Firm Power Electricity supply that is reliably available on demand, regardless of weather conditions.
Dispatchable Power Power plants that can be turned on or off or adjusted to meet demand as needed.
Demand Side Management (DSM) Programs designed to reduce or shift customer energy use to improve system efficiency.
Photovoltaic (PV) Technology that converts sunlight directly into electricity.
Photovoltaic-Thermal (PVT) Combined system producing both electricity and heat (hot water) from solar energy.
Linear Fresnel Lens A type of solar concentrator using flat plastic lenses to focus sunlight onto PV cells.
Integrated Resource Planning (IRP) A regulatory process for utilities to plan for future energy resources to meet demand.

Final Remarks

The discussed video transcript provides a comprehensive and balanced discussion of Maui’s energy challenges, focusing on the economic, technical, and social barriers to renewable energy adoption. It highlights the critical role of the private sector and community involvement, supported by innovative technologies and strategic partnerships, to transition Maui toward a sustainable energy future while maintaining affordable rates and environmental stewardship.

The Entech solar concentrator program, facilitated by the Maui Arts and Music Association, represents an actionable, community-driven opportunity to advance renewable energy deployment affordably and effectively.

 

Aloha this is Airielle and I’m so happy to be here today with you bringing to you another wonderful program from Mama presents Maui Arts and Music Association is so happy to bring to you today the president of our electric company it’s wonderful to see such an incredible man with an open mind and an open heart serving our community and Jason’s here to interview him and give you all the great pleasure of that insight for yourselves have a great time thank you Ariel thank you Ariel for

 

02:35
the kind words welcome it’s my great pleasure I’m very happy to meet you thank you I’m going to leave you and let you have a little intimate conversation thank you well let me let me do the honors Ariel this is Tom Lezierney, president of our electric company Aloha Tom I’m so honored that you’ve joined us here today thank you thank youel I’m I’m happy to join you thank you thank you and thank you for for your gifts that you bring to our community our pleasure thank you enjoy

 

03:05
yourself we will thank you thank you thank you Tom thank you for being here with us there Jason I’m just kind of got it settled in here a little bit um where are we today is um somewhere at the end of May in 1995 we’re sitting here at the Maui Arts and Cultural Center out in the courtyard uh thank you Cultural Center for letting us use this location um I just came from talking to the Rotary Club in sprecklesville which is quite a nice experience in fact we’ll have it on another show we had the

 

03:39
privilege to be able to videotape that performance performance if you will um today I’m really happy to be here with you I’ve known you since I guess sometime in 1990 when I went to Maui Electric company as a civilian if you will I wasn’t into politics I wasn’t into Maui Arts and Music Association I came with knowledge and ideas about renewable energy that I wanted to talk about a product that was going to be created and it could create electricity and hot water and other applications and um I got to meet the

 

04:17
engineering department and I got to meet you and there was conversation but really not much more because H solar still didn’t make economic sense and we were in no crisis then really here and um things were moving on then a couple of years later and I’ve met you numbers of times you know your involvement with the the center by example and other things in the Arts and Music so we’ve been around and meeting and then the uh pu made an Advisory Board uh thing where they needed to have people come out from the community and

 

04:52
get involved in planning the energy future of our Island and I went down and I volunteered if you will and I found that a very enriching experience and it’s through that process that I’ve really gotten to understand you and the electric company and what it really will take at least in my mind to get renewable energy on this island to really happen you know we all say what a great place to do wind power look at us here today and solar power and all kinds of things but I got to understand and I

 

05:24
don’t want to be talking I’ll let you talk some um why don’t we we begin the um utility company provides power to us now this expansion in in Malaya why why couldn’t it be solar right now I mean you talk about having power all the time can you explain that well if we’re talking um solar as an option to fossil fuel and the combustion turbines that we plan on installing uh it really comes down to the basic criteria of least cost to what is commercially available what is least cost firm power that we can dispatch to

 

06:00
our customers now very specifically uh solar is more expensive than fuel oil as far as cents per kilowatt hour right and unfortunately it is not dispatchable if the wind if probably if the Sun is not shining then the solar is not necessarily going to generate at night that we would not have any solar power so that firm power idea the fact that your customers want to make sure that there’s plenty of power when they want it just like here with the expansion of the power plant it wasn’t an issue of

 

06:31
you saying we want to expand this because we are getting bigger and we you’re saying we want to be able to provide Power because we think that the people of the island will need it that’s correct right that’s correct now if I remember from the the IRP the integrated resource planning process the Public Utilities Commission has really asked you maybe demanded you to come up with a demand side management program correct now demand side management can you quickly explain what that means well

 

06:59
demand side and supply side are the two two areas of IRP uh demand side is what happens on the customer side of the electric meter what can be done basically in conservation in Energy Efficiency supply side usually means what is is provided in the term of terms of power from the utility or from other generators so that usually has to do with the generation of electricity whether it’s from fossil fuel conventional renewable energy uh that’s Supply so you’re a supply Sider and I as customer am a demand Sider if you will

 

07:33
demand side management means that I the customer have an opportunity but the utility comp the Pu asks you if I understand to put a program in place to offer programs and give incentives so people will wrap their water heaters put on solar water heating systems uh Commercial Lighting so that they’ll lower their utility usage but those are demanded by P right well the the programs or the in the initial uh charge to do this was uh a requirement of the puc requirement of the integrated resource planning it was then up to the

 

08:11
utility to present the programs to do a study to say these are the most cost effective programs my my point I’m making is I think it’s sort of funny that we need to have someone say You must create a program to save again here we on an island and we are farther from any other Main land Source we have fuel coming here to fuel our power so if we could find ways of doing it from here and to cut our usage you’d think that people would do it by themselves I mean so far that’s what’s interesting the

 

08:43
Public Utilities Commission said to you hey it’s time we want you to put together a program to show people how to save money you may remember cuz you’re from the mainland also that’s old hat on the mainland why we haven’t done that here way before it just seems to be as some people say there may be a complacency I was talking earlier today to the rotary it’s that we still don’t recognize that the world is uh going to hack as we say because we’re in such a beautiful place look where we are here

 

09:14
what do they say it’s only after it’s too late and it bites you that’s to me too late to wake up you know so but the demand side management program you told me that excuse me I’m talking this way but I’m talking to you also um the program is something you can’t rely on for example tell me when we were talking about that when I I said you know we hear critics say that the expansion of the plant isn’t necessary because there’s this demand side management conservation effort going can you

 

09:44
explain about the well we we’re um we’re submitting four different programs to the Pu and the programs are planned to decrease the load growth by a certain amount certain megawatts or certain percentage but there are so many uncertainties with DSM specific Al how much penetration they may receive that’s a fancy word for what is the customer interest what is the customer interest in in in participating in these demand side management programs if the customer interest isn’t there or the kilowatt

 

10:12
hours the Energy savings are not there then the load will not be decreased as as desired balance that with a power plant which once built and once is operating is a known resource is a has has a high degree of certainty right okay so to me that says you know you either going to go fuel oil and you have to go conventional things that are proven 24 hours or you get these demand side management programs in place and that’s a good start but I think probably we can agree it just begins to touch the surface of

 

10:49
what people could do if they made a conscious decision in the excuse me I like to call it the private sector you’re business I’m an individual if I to own a home and decide I want to put solar water heating on my house because it makes sense you see the tax credits you see the long advantage that would pay for itself you don’t need an incentive from the electric company to do it and I that brings me back to a point I think that you know I’ve been talking a long time there’s a a product

 

11:21
or products that I know that have been tested on the mainland I don’t want to get into it now I don’t want to get into a situation of endorsement I’ll talk about it in a later part of of the segment but let’s say there’s a product that’s tried and true in the mainland we know it works but it’s too expensive per unit like when you talk about solar and wind it’s too expensive you want to go out and buy something for $2,000 $25,000 to replace something you just plug into your wall to get and you use

 

11:51
fuel there’s no comparison for you on the supply side there’s no comparison between these expensive systems and your present sources of fuel but as individuals uh if I know the way business works if I have one chair and it’s the only one around or 10 of them they’re $10 if suddenly someone orders a thousand of them and they say I’ll only give you six six works and uh if they want 5,000 of them and they want $4 suddenly you can bring the price down we live in a place you can help me on this

 

12:35
are utility rates here um some say they modest some say they’re high some say they’re low the ones that say they’re low um they’re not reading their bill I’m sure that all of us realize that the cost of utility is a rising thing it may be that you know oil is our barometer for how much fuel costs but that’s only because we haven’t looked at other Tech Technologies where after the equipment is paid for we eliminate the cost of the fuel we just have the equipment and its

 

13:06
maintenance and if it’s good equipment we’ve suddenly eliminated one of the factors cost of the fuel okay and here on an island with wind and with sun those things are great but they’re not economically sensible one by one I I think that’s why I’m really saying to you oh in your experience have you I know the answer to this I think that’s why I asked as these questions we talked about um a demonstration project for different Technologies now I know down in kii you have some kind of

 

13:40
demonstration of renewable technology don’t you we have a photovoltaic demonstration unit in kii on laoa place um actually it’s Mala of the uh r&t Center I see it’s been there since about 80 1988 and collecting data on the efficiency and the effectiveness of uh this type of PV photo voltaic U technology okay so photovoltaic I’m going to now give you an example that photov voltaic is a um fixed thing right it doesn’t track with the sun it doesn’t track with no this one is that’s right a stationary it’s U

 

14:16
on an angle for a maximum exposure to the Sun but no it doesn’t track the sun in its orbit and when you got originally involved in the program it was with um Pacific Gas and Electric Department of energy um Maui Electric all in a joint venture called PV USA right mhm I should let you explain it although I’m no you’re doing well PV USA uh which is a photovoltaic for utility scale applications meaning to be able to use them in large scale to help utilities um change their fuel supply right they found that the

 

14:53
system that we’re testing in um Ki MH is one of the lower performers if you will of the number of systems they check and some of the other systems have a higher rating but again um here in Maui people are they care very little about what happens somewhere else they want to know it works here there may or may not you can tell me I hope you’re budgeting in and thinking of demonstration projects for Technologies like these to show people here they work again that’s what Mama’s trying to do through the promotion of

 

15:25
art music and culture to be able to raise money and awareness that these possibilities exist be able to then show a demonstration that it works and subscribe both homeowners and small businesses to say yes if these systems were affordable I would want one now then we could predict the amount of savings and again whether it’s directly approaching your Peak or not we’re now talking about something that the public would be doing and we know they’d want to use it they put their money into it

 

15:59
if they to use it they weren’t given an opportunity in someone like the Pu saying and the utility company and very well thank you you know we’ll give you these incentives but they’re saying we see value so we know that it probably would be used which means it could be something you could comfortably predict if the cost drops now when we talk about PV if we if if we think about photovoltaic the installation of a photovoltaic system for a house to allow it to disconnect from the from the M

 

16:27
grid is somewhere in Access of 20 to $225,000 when you say disconnect from the M grid what do you mean I mean that they wouldn’t need to be fed by us that the we want you there as well see then it would be even more costly well let’s talk about that in a second okay right now uh the largest systems I was talking about like a 10 megawatt system where above puamana and lahina we have modules and we put an additional line into the hotels the land is owned by AA the polls are owned by you and amfac some kind of

 

17:01
partnership would have modules powering you would still be there supplying power MH okay now an individual thing why is it expensive individually $25,000 or more well talking two different things U the $225,000 it would be a per residence cost for PV Standalone system what you’re describing a 10 megawatt system would be much larger maybe to feed a hotel or what I’m saying is is it because what if you had 5,000 people saying we’re going to go and we want this kind of service could your cost be

 

17:35
lower based on product is it product or service that’s costing that much to make that transition 25 okay the $25,000 that I mentioned that’s not a utility cost that’s a cost that would be born by a rate by a resident if he installed it and this would have to be installed probably by a contractor when you said $25,000 for what for the whole system for PV sells up on top for battery now that’s my point see that’s my my point mhm that’s my point guys if enough people say yes we would like to do this

 

18:06
a large enough purchase can be made where the costs come down significantly when I talk about again I’m not talking about what but solar concentrators and the ones I’m talking about dramatically can lower the cost per unit in scale okay that’s what I’m really saying so that it wouldn’t be $25,000 to get off the grid or to have you there there it might be $8 or $9,000 if we order 5,000 of these M that it will cost $8 or $9,000 a family based on the utility rate it’ll pay back in this kind of

 

18:41
amount of time then I would think to go to maybe a sister company like American Savings Bank or anyone if you have $5,000 9,000 deals You’ suddenly have something meaningful which is kind of an interesting twist to have uh um a way of strengthening see as I look at it strengthening your utility company by not asking you to expand your power plants because we the people are putting in systems if if the will of the people were to spend much more money than they are right now for electric rates to

 

19:15
bring in PV or wind or other renewable energy that could happen but you’re see you’re talking as a utility company and I’m saying if they were willing to spend the rate then it would be part of the electric company plan but if as citizen they decide to do it then the rates don’t have to go up on electric that’s right if people if if a person or persons wanted to install the systems on their own then yes that wouldn’t affect our R that’s my real point that that’s I

 

19:42
think the most important thing I really want to be able to communicate that if people want to install them on their own the utility rates don’t have to go up just because we’re going to do solar and it would allow you to not have to build power plants which might mean hey the electric company would function fine not having to expand I bet and give you more chance to explore other things my question would be for people who already are served by us what incentive is there what in what what economic incentive

 

20:10
might be there for them to go back and retrofit their their houses with PV and batteries to the tune of 20 or $25,000 well again you’re talking 20 $225,000 and I say yeah what incentive I wouldn’t do it if I I don’t have a home now but if I did I wouldn’t spend 25,000 if I didn’t have it now okay MH but if I could bring it down to $9,000 for an installed system and see a payback in five years which is realistic and reasonable I mean again we can project utility rates I don’t have a crystal

 

20:43
ball and I’m sure you don’t either but people also have to look at other factors their willingness to get involved and help make a difference I was talking to the rotary group about that same thing they’re are leaders if we all say that we can make this world better place it means taking something a step ourselves so the step that you took of coming down here I guess you’d say is very significant to me and I hope to the people of Maui to understand that if we can bring the that’s the

 

21:14
whole point if we can bring the cost of the solar down that we the people can do solar and wind and then the utility company can provide service comfortably and is very supportive I would say if I would say that you’re very supportive of renewable energy and if there was a way it would be cost effective right and make sense you’d be doing it absolutely is that right mhm you know I I supported uh your expansion of the power plant and then I was there through the whole process I remember a letter that came in

 

21:45
the one of our local papers South Maui times it was headlined Schwarz says power plant expansion oade and I remember reading the letter and thinking and I wrote it they could have headlined it Schwarz says solar would be great but they didn’t right I hope that this show will encourage people to take a look at this possibility and opportunity and also to better understand your company and you you know I know recently in the Press with all the screaming and squawking from different groups sure

 

22:16
they all feel and care for the fact that we want to preserve our environment you know the Kay Pond and all the natural resources I know know you personally and I know that you as interested in Saving the uh environment there as I am as probably anyone on Maui and I think it’s important that people get to see you in a in a different role any other things that I’m kind of not letting you say because I’m rambling too much here any thoughts well I think we we talk about it if if this happens and if that

 

22:50
happens and we’re talking theoretical that the cost will drop down my experience is that is that uh for res itial houses um costs are way up there and and large volume won’t necessarily bring those costs down if a different profit scale be built in well with the scale of number of systems I mean I’m talking again I’m trying not to bring up the specific product the highest rated system that I’ve seen in this country in this other system is ready to make a major opportunity for large scale

 

23:30
application because they know they need a demonstration when we talk about PV USA that’s phot photo Vol takes for utility scale application the largest application in this country in dagged California these mirrors shining on a tower that’s lovely it’s centralized what about something that could work centralized or decentralized something like linear Fel lenses concentrating where you can have some in a home or in a new community plan them down a parking stretch there’s so many ways to go new

 

24:03
developers and homeowners that are retrofit all have to look at this you know I I was recently reading I’m sure you saw Maui tomorrow did a buildout scenario of based on the present zoning how many people can live uh or will be in these different communities so suddenly kii from 15,000 ears to 200,000 so with the never mind if that scenario happens in the short term there’s a lot of new building going on and a lot of things could be planned in by the private sector and it could be that the

 

24:36
one I’m talking to is C Brewer or Jim Schuler or whoever building houses on mass that would say you know yeah we we can get the tax credits put them in our P Pocket as commercial tax credits offer homes with Renewable Power what a great marketing incentive and that’s why I I think I’m bringing it up to me people need to know that the electric company is not our enemy and the electric company is not an enemy to renewable energy true you know and I think that maybe through this process people will

 

25:12
begin to look more seriously at what I’ve been saying you’re right if the price could come down let’s see if that can happen see I expect to get commitments without any dollars because when we have enough commitments from responsible Bonafide people that speaks for dollars we’ll find the finances but if we don’t have a dream and a vision and that’s what we’re doing we’re building dreams we’re letting people know that there really is no difference and separation between us and you there

 

25:40
is no us and you and I I love doing this show with Ariel because Ariel has a very soft and wonderful and different side and the kind of things that she shows she’s really um I’m sure you may know her I’ve told you some she’s a gifted healer and psychic does emotional and spiritual counting she works with people helping their lymphatic systems she’s doing all kinds of things the people that we’re going to be bringing on the show from all walks of life to say you know these are things we hold close to

 

26:10
our heart it’s nice to know that the president of the electric company if you will that there’s a heart then when we talk about the heart of Maui I really respect the hard work You’ done and the the hard position it is to sit under public scrutiny you know just because people are environmental uh doesn’t mean they’re radical that doesn’t mean I don’t agree with if we could have put the power plant somewhere else in expansion I’m sure you also we were there and tried I saw what happened I I

 

26:40
know that the electric company did its part to try and we’re going to try more and we’re going to find another expansion place right but we as private sector can make a major difference in how quickly this rate of expansion happens by getting involved with Mama and what we’re doing and take a look and see if what we make says make sense and give the electric company a chance also I think that you’ll find in the future that there will be uh a greater you know I I’ve learned so much that the Hawaiian

 

27:12
way is really embracing each other let’s see if we can do that instead of being divisive and bickering why don’t we try to cooperate and uh why don’t we bring a Aloha and Aloha AA um into being more Tom thank you for being with us thank you it’s been a pleasure thank you Jason let me just say we’re going to be um putting in a couple of questions here and there and it may seem a little disjointed on the tape I don’t think I gave Tom jerni a chance to talk I cut him off every which way so I think it’s

 

27:48
real important and Ariel brought it up that we get to know Tom more personally you know if you will the the one thing we were just talking about if we’re trying to talk about what’s the barrier to solar and wind what do you see as the barrier to having solar power or wind power or things here well I think on Maui and in Hawaii in general but in Maui specifically probably three barriers and one is one is that the these Technologies are not firm power they have to be backed up with conventional power conventional power

 

28:21
plants or they need some kind of a storage facility like a large battery which gets very expensive so they become so the the firm power or what do we call as available energy these are more as available energy when the wind blows when the sun is shining you have them but the wind is not blowing or when the sun is not shining you don’t have them they need to be backed up and that that cost of backup is the same that you would have incurred had the wind or the seller been installed or not so what

 

28:46
you’re really doing is adding additional cost okay on Maui the um the issue of land is also difficult and that um uh wind uh is uh comprised of towers with large blades uh land owners are not necessarily um enraptured with the uh with the thought of uh providing land that will be tied up for 20 or 25 or 30 years if it if it means that they have to lose agricultural or other other developmental interest in those land but I think the the major thing is that the economics for both wind and solar

 

29:22
especially solar PV photo voltaic is poor right now it’s uh two to three times the cost of fossil fuel um which makes it very unattractive except in specific instances of say remote application houses way out at the end uh houses that are not connected to the to the grid where cost of connection would be very high and maybe PV photovoltaic would make sense for them I see so I would say that the the barriers are economic and our land and are the fact that the type of technology is not firm power so again it needs to be

 

29:57
backed up with convention power at at present you know when you um answer that I hear it and I think um again I don’t want to just keep talking about it but that’s my point the fact that there the cost is too high that the cost of land is too great to give up a chunk for 20 or 30 years to provide Power is the reason that we the private sector MH have to do it because you can’t cuz he can iics won’t let you okay now now again photo volic needs a lot of room a lot of space wind needs a

 

30:35
lot of space when you talk about the private sector you’re I think you’re talking about land owners is is to develop what kind of incentive would there be for landowners to say I’m I’m willing to give up Acres of space that may not be used for anything in the next 10 or 15 or 20 years I see now I think this is important that we discuss this I don’t want to take up all the time here but I definitely know that I you can have six of these specific modules I’m talking about on a home or in a backyard

 

31:06
and power for a family of four that doesn’t take acreage of land from anyone it takes in a home if you have a a back bedroom if you can have six of these and sto on your roof or here mhm where’s the problem here you’d need power for sure because of the tremendous energy demand for this location but if a home could provide even if it’s 30% 40% 50% they could do it without taking additional land and yeah well but is the if such a installation was made on a on a home would that allow the home to

 

31:41
disconnect from from the grid only if they I mean most people say well I know the sun works I know the wind works but I sure I’m glad I’m plugged into Maui Electric anyway okay so if they if they remain connected to us then they’re also paying for the energy they that they consume and you call that what do we call that that’s a uh some kind of charge well if you’re hooked up to the system there’s always a customer charge and there’s a minimum charge and then on top of that is an energy charge for how

 

32:09
much you actually use right so but remember I would I remember when I was selling solar water heating systems in California we know that there are still bills and we respect those but even counting that we would want this to make economic sense or not ask people to even look at it that’s right that’s right again I I’d like to to bet understand from you so it’s the land the economics uh for the the cost of the technology is is high in itself okay so land availability of land the cost of

 

32:41
land also the the um the type of the technology as available energy versus firm power firm power okay and the third the fact that the that the cost of the probably the type of technology is what does not allow for our our own conventional generating units to be deferred wind is not is not firm power so we can’t defer adding units at Malaya or elsewhere photovoltaic is not fir power as standing alone and therefore it doesn’t allow us to defer our own generating units see but what if now the

 

33:13
next five years you would well what if if if uh let’s say in the next five years you saw that through implementation of private sector programs that there was less that people were using the systems would that help in in it or oh would the if people were using the systems to decrease their their amount of energy that they consume it would impact us impact us very directly yes and we could we could defer generating units okay but up front I’m sure that you there’s nothing you can rely on it it has to start and show some

 

33:49
kind of progression has to show has to show again penetration has to show a a certain type of U uh decrease in the in the load and it has to show some continuity that this decrease will continue and that it isn’t something that just takes place over a few months of the year because if it if it if it doesn’t take if it only takes place over a few months of the year the months when the load is not decreased will still have to be served by us with conventional generating units mhm well again I don’t know if I should

 

34:17
ask you this do you think that there’s enough wind um and sun on these islands that in theory this possibly could work in theory in theory there’s plenty of wind but again it’s I’m talking about private sector I I have I think it sounds funny I’ve forgiven the electric company for not doing renewable energy okay because that firm power thing sure makes a lot of sense to me MH and the economics well that’s what I’m working on and talking to these guys out here to let them know

 

34:48
that they all can be involved together okay and the land I know a way around that also it’s called the roofs of our structures I mean you know it’s funny I remember going Australia people put solar systems on the front of their houses here they hide them in the back over around a tree and they wonder why is it not working it’s because they block it so no one sees they’ve got it in Australia they hold them proudly we should hold them proudly wouldn’t that be an interesting thing to hold the fact

 

35:15
that we’re making a difference see you know the old keeping up with the Joneses how about keeping up with the Joneses who got a Sol system that would be fun um when you’ve been on this is now how many five years all together eight years eight years five years this time and three years and in an earlier period Well what have you seen as far as um people’s usage patterns and are things going up or down are people using more resal usage is going up residential uses going up to one to two sometimes 3% per

 

35:48
year and so over the last 20 years there’s been a gradual increase in the residential usage you mean in how much people use the kilowatt hours per month individ ually so other words people are getting per customer mhm doesn’t what does that say to you guys that says that we’re using more power now in this new power age but we’re not figuring I mean it’s sort of funny isn’t it everyone talks about conservation but that’s just talk is that what you’re saying I’m I’m

 

36:15
saying that um the new um new technologies are more energy efficient but each house is probably installing more Technologies more TV sets larger freezers larger uh dishwashers larg your uh uh clothes washers clothes dryers and that the overall impact even though the individual piece of equipment may be more energy efficient the increase in the Numbers number of the equipment of the the device the uh appliance that the overall net impact is an increase in people’s consumption welcome um again this is Tom

 

36:52
jerni president of Maui Electric Company I don’t think you have any trouble knowing him he is um president of the Chamber of Commerce for a little longer right couple couple more weeks couple more weeks not only president of the electric company but involved in the um the development here at the cultural center the Maui philarmonic Maui Symphony Maui academy of performing arts Maui academy of performing arts um but here we’re talking again we’re continuing our conversation about renewable

 

37:20
technology I gave uh Tom an opportunity over the weekend to look at some numbers presented by uh company one of the leaders in the Solar industry reviewing uh photovoltaic systems both straight photovoltaic and photovoltaic with a thermal hot water uh additional component and they sent us some new numbers after the weekend they hadn’t addressed a couple of things Tom rather than me rambling like has been typical I’d like you to help me maybe start to see the numbers they sent showing experience in a

 

37:56
home typical energy demand how did that seem it seemed very low because the um the uh monthly uh usage I believe and this was uh Jason’s typical home energy demand planning chart okay that was about 3.7 kilowatt hours wat hours per day kilowatt hours per day MH and um when we look at Maui customers the average uh usage per month is about 600 kilowatt hours per month which comes out to be assuming a 30-day uh 30-day month you’re talking about 20 kilowatt hours a day as opposed to the less than 4

 

38:32
kilowatt hours a day shown on this chart so I would not consider this typical or or average I see of the of the Maui uh resident uh of our residential customers I guess that’s why you were so concerned about the expansion of the power plant yes well that’s true and and again if we look at um Mau use that you compare to Mainland usage Maui uses less because we don’t don’t use electricity for heating in most of our homes whereas the Mainland does uh use electricity for heating not that many homes are air

 

39:03
conditioned uh whereas especially in the South West homes are air conditioned so that here in Maui 600 kwatt hours a month is on the low side compared to many areas on the mainland yeah I mean if I see that that kind of usage really says everyone should start waking up to ways they might cut down their usage sure you know our uh as much as anything Our concern for uh not building of power plants uh takes our own responsibility is I’m well it it is then the incentive the incentive for people to employ their own

 

39:36
conservation is there already and has been there for years simply in that using less electricity per month per day uh will result in a lower bill um at the same time um as I think we mentioned in the earlier earlier part of the tape is that uh although um um we although we um see conservation to some to some uh extent uh the average usage per customer has gone up over these last 10 to 20 years has has gone up uh and say 18 out of the last 20 years we’ve seen an increase small increase from year to year

 

40:14
um okay I mean to me that says a lot it says I think you said it that we have more toys they may be energy efficient but boy we have lots of them I think so I think so okay um I know it’s always hard with a crystal bolt to project rates in the future well average per year rate increase you have any kind of feeling for that for the last 10 or 20 years here on Maui is well to if if we look at um let’s say today compared to rates back in the early 80s specifically ‘ 84 our rates are and

 

40:48
thank you for asking this question our rates are our rates are lower now rates are lower today than they were back in 1984 what are they now uh about 13 half to 14 cents per kilowatt hour okay back in 194 1984 at the two previous rate cases they’re up at the 14 actually in excess of 14 cents a kilowatt hour for Maui and this is due the reason we’re low now is due to a combination of lower fuel oil Cost Plus um rate decreases since the 1984 now we’re at about 13 half cents per kilowatt hour right now over the

 

41:23
next year we anticipate this going up into the 15s and maybe the low 16 cents per kilow hour given our present rate uh rating rate uh increase request that should take place through the calendar year 1996 does that include the uh DSM program that you proposed as well or no uh not yet no the the increase that I mentioned is uh does not include the DSM programs we expect to see I’m going to guess somewhere between uh 02 and3 cents per kilowatt hour uh on top of the existing rates for the demand side

 

41:57
management progr programs the energy conservation programs that will be submitting to the Pu very shortly okay so to uh you and I who are users and you too I guess huh absolutely mhm no free electricity no no okay to you and I the consumer um we know that we potentially have rate increases and I want to commend you for uh keeping the rate as low as you have that’s good news to hear that between 80 and 94 and five that things are similar I know the cost of living has gone up so that really is quite significant to me

 

42:35
but um with pending rate increases and besides rate increases with um people wanting not to use fuel oil I mean that was part of the thing there in Malay as I understand they really didn’t want more expansion of that kind of Technology there MH they didn’t want the power plant expanded at that location although they I think there was a recognition and I don’t want to speak for the Mal Community Association but there was not a dispute regarding the type of the technology the gas the gas

 

43:04
turbine technology MH because it’s acknowledged to be the uh most most efficient that’s available for our size uh at the same time it is fired by diesel oil and we’re hoping that when other commercial when other fuels become commercially available whether they’re fossil based or biomass based or whatever then that then we can convert the gas turbin uh to another type of fuel okay I I wanted to um to really acknowledge about the rate increases and why I ask that so we can’t really

 

43:37
project 10% the year increases I mean remember when the energy business was really just beginning in solar years ago a lot of people got solar systems thinking uh that the rates would be shooting up based on it’s kind of false predictions by the solar people scarcity of oil so we’re not talking about that now I I want to talk from a a basis of let’s look at it without any kind of pie in the sky projections let’s be conservative and looking in fact I think that’s what I saw in these papers from

 

44:04
uh this uh company that we’re talking about no projection of rate increases at all now if we have a rate increase for expansion of the plant DSM program that’s one thing what we’re talking about for this has no effect on utility rate and if anything means that people won’t have to pay whatever the given rate is at that time right well I think this gives them a a chance to look at at an alternate to um to being connected to Mau electric that if they install a PV system or a PV and a thermal system uh

 

44:36
they can reduce their consumption lower their bill to us while at the same time they’re paying off a loan or some other Financial instrument by which they’ve uh installed the PV or PV thermal system on the mainland I had experience where when people put these systems on their homes the house increased in value have you had any experience with that or looking at that here I don’t have a direct experience i’ I’ve heard that that saying that it it helps out the resale value of the house okay I’m only

 

45:03
bringing it up because often when when I look at numbers and we’re going to look at here in a second um these numbers speak pretty loudly but the fact that when you buy it it also increases the value of your home is something that people should think about and consider sometimes it isn’t always in how much the monthly payment if you’re also putting on a system for $10,000 and your houses increased $10,000 or more or more right okay um let’s begin I’m going to try to see if I can make some simple

 

45:30
sense of this and ask the numbers they sent us before the weekend M that that I gave to you to review showed a PV system and a PV thermal system right any initial comments or well the initial comment was that they um they mentioned that if the um that they’re not currently developing the combined photovoltaic and thermal version so I looked at the pvt the photovoltaic and thermal numbers with some um uh hesitancy because if it’s not available I’m not sure that it’s in the market but in fact that

 

46:04
isn’t the case the fact is what they were trying to U reference in the letter was that they would do it if they have a sizable order they don’t want to do it one and two and three at a time okay the preferred system is the photovoltaic with the thermal especially in a residential application because the savings is so dramatic I mean it shortens the payback dramatically and again lead me to think that people might see wow you know this is better for us to do it rather than the utility company

 

46:33
sure but besides that cuz that’s something that is now different and we’ll show the numbers straight PV if you were electric company I see they left that installation of um battery right right that anything else that you’ve noticed that was significant they were talking about $7,000 uhhuh for a unit that would generate 3.7 kilow hours per day and uh they’re talking about a 30-year loan or a 15year loan at right 8 or 10% interest and showing that again uh you talk about 14 cents a kilowatt

 

47:11
hour yeah that about 155 saved per month now on a system like this okay they didn’t talk about tax credits they didn’t really address that in this initial thing I was noticing um you know I was I did analysis on the numbers anyway and I found that it still looked fairly attractive it looks attractive to me when I consider that uh a 15 or 30-year mortgage on new construction or if someone is refinancing a house uh there’s but I I need to ask you a real basic question please do does it reduce your electric

 

47:47
bill does it reduce your overall Energy bill does the combination of the energy reduction payment to Mau electric offset the additional loan uh payment that you have to make immediately no but that’s why I brought up the issue of value of the system and it’s a 30-year design life it’s not like it’s right it’s right and because if you’re uh doing it commercially I mean there are other there’s depreciation and 10% investment tax credit besides the 35% state Hawaii tax credit um I mean

 

48:20
that’s my thought I know that when I look at the Hard numbers now for a loan you’re right when you compare $155 with a $55 payment say right but that’s today if we’re if we get 2500 homes or more to say yes on this this is just PV that I’m looking at the numbers Dro from 55 to $32 a month because the system would only be$ 4,000 rather than 7,000 but um I think we should probably jump to numbers I think it’s I think we have to be careful when we see the word tomorrow tomorrow doesn’t mean Wednesday

 

48:58
May 31st that means something in the future uh that needs conditions other than what the manufacturer can impose it needs a market driving it well and that’s no today represents if someone out there says you know I like this I want to get one they pay a 7500 or with the batteries let’s say 9,000 tomorrow means you know I’m proposing that people make a decision about this and jointly Express yes they want it before they put out any money the Lar L enough purchase could bring it tomorrow to Wednesday it

 

49:30
could be Wednesday or maybe a let’s call it a year from Wednesday where we could manufacture these here it has other benefits you know okay but that’s what this number is so to me that’s very significant I know I’m looking I just switched sheets this is pvt the thermal one is not that much more expensive at all for manufacturing right so to me that seems like the best bet to even consider for a homeowner I wouldn’t think they should consider it without they can consider without the ther but

 

49:58
this is very dramatically different um let’s go to the the current numbers I really think let’s be accurate based on after they looked at tax credits and such one I see here again we’re going to post some of these up on the screen for your enjoyment also you can contact us and we’ll give you copies of these numbers to look at if you’d like um first page one megawatt solar row and then for five of them if we do five one megawatt programs at the same time okay now these are there’s wind power blowing

 

50:30
our paper and we can let them go okay but now one megawatt solar row that has to do with a commercial use that’s not for residential use correct right I was just purposely trying to show both different you know I know that uh when it’s a while ago I don’t know how same it is but uh mikai we talked that a megawatt system there wouldn’t upset your energy mix on moai or on lenai similarly so that you could still be providing power and it wouldn’t um if you will well a megawatt is uh on Maui a

 

51:03
megawatt on Maui is very small a megawatt on molai um is about 15% of the system and laai would be almost 25% of the system so and mikai and L one megawatt would be would be significant Maui NATO M do they have the same kind of um peak time uh both Peaks yeah both Peaks on uh M are in the evening um usually between 6:00 and 8:00 p.m. okay but molai basically is a 6 megawatt peaking system and molai is about 4.7 4.8 megawatts right now okay well I think that’s what this was saying you know I had talked about a project above

 

51:40
the r&t park as a demonstration of a megawatt or you know I have all kinds of grand plans y but the fact is large scale purchase and agreement of this could bring these numbers down tremendously you see that one megawatt today if you will $6 million after the tax credits 3.9 million tomorrow meaning all five at once we’re talking uh 4 million that’s a big change so from $384 a wat to $2.50 C 6 cents a what what kind of application would be seen with this type of uh system PV system are we talking residential is it

 

52:20
Commercial Hotel this is just Theory I when I was thinking about m I was thinking who there has large usage and I tried and talk to the kcoy but they’re sort of decentralized in an unusual way they told me yeah and um I haven’t had conversation yet with Mika Ranch although I’m sure we should that lowincome housing project might be something to look at as possibly very interesting one also I don’t know if you’re aware mikai is considered a distressed area by the United States

 

52:53
government and the Department of Commerce has additional funds aailable even to help on something like this there are weatherization funds we’ve we’ve looked with other um agencies we looked at other uh DSM programs or other um Energy savings programs for mulay yeah there are some funds out there for uh for Creative uh Creative Energy mhm the conclusion that they these guys drew that by the example was that at 12 cents a kilow hour MH that a um a 30-year loan makes sense there savings 19 am I looking

 

53:32
right you looking at the savings I’m looking at the wrong one I’m looking at the pvt that’s the one I wanted to look at okay I think straight photov voltaic what would you say I mean to see in a utility company do it is that realistic in the next 10 years 15 20 years certainly not in the next five years as far as commercial uh it it simply isn’t commercial uh PV is still in demonstration research and development now certain utilities and we’re one of them as is the Big Island utility is

 

54:02
looking at what’s called dispersed generation in that if we have a customer way out at the end of the line rather than spending a lot of bucks the customer is spending a lot of bucks to connect through use of poles and lines is for the customer to have in place a PV system uh Standalone system by which the customer um could then be self-powered um and the cost for that could be less than the traditional hookup through the poles and lines that we normally do so that’s conceivable that you would be

 

54:30
doing that yeah BG uh West Coast utilities are doing this uh the big island has a demonstration project in a county park we’re looking at a demonstration project in a county park also uh but again these are very selective and um extraordinary conditions by which a PV system could be installed at this point and again NB NB again these are demonstration they’re not commercial yeah so any we’re talking again cost effectively I like to bring that up because so many people in Maui some people are looking at the budget

 

55:04
and saying okay it does cost me a little more now to do solar but some people have a great deal of discretionary income large house places to hide modules there I got to say those are the um exceptions when we look at our at our normal C at our typical customer uh we’re looking at fairly small houses we’re looking at uh three-bedroom residential houses and um I don’t know that there is a lot of discretionary I would say that more more likely than not it’s the upper end of of our customers

 

55:34
who have the discretionary income so I I I want to be careful that’s what I’m thinking of I think it’s it’s it’s very small though yeah I think so okay yeah well for all of you with discretionary income thank you for uh the rest of us we want the hard numbers to look right and when I looked at these numbers what I saw was see if you agree with me that the uh pvt the photo Volt take with thermal systems mhm to tomorrow tomorrow represents if we have 2500 homes doing it by example today represents an

 

56:10
individual system individual system today no tax grades or anything $9,800 tomorrow 5,900 okay let let’s look at both of them how realistic in your experience has it been that that these numbers are they look fairly accurate No these look very when we talk something in the range of 4 to $6,000 um when I’ve talked to local retailers uh they’re telling us the cost for a standalone system for residential house is up in the 20 to 25 to $30,000 range and what kind of kilowatts are they generally trying to deliver uh

 

56:51
usually between two and three kilowatt enough for that for the peak of that house similar to this kind of a size system similar to this so these numbers are it’s really combination of photovoltaic may have wind may have a little bit of a wind power but photovoltaic maybe wind and certainly batteries because you need a battery sge so what you’re saying is in your experience these numbers are very low yes yes so that’s when I said that they were looking to put together something that would be advantageous because they

 

57:19
need demonstration they wanted to create something that would be dramatically lower than Market normally for the reason we’re talking about they want it to look good on Maui Maui it seems like to me like such a wonderful place to try something like this um I I hope that what this is showing uh people out there I don’t know if it’s your intention but a CH is mine I saw through my experience in the IRP that it’s a major chore to think that the utility company is going to bring renewable technology here first it’s

 

57:53
going to have to be the private sector to get involved it’s very very simply if the renewable technology is commercial if it is competitive with uh with other sources of energy that we have now then the then the utility would be the leader at this point though for both PV and wind we don’t see them uh those Technologies as competitive at the same time if a developer comes in with solar or wind or other Technologies and wants to establish a purchase contract with us we will do that we will buy the power uh

 

58:23
from the developer to me that’s very exciting because it says to me that if this is going to happen here for the people of Maui wanting to do it they have to take the initiative themselves to do it in the private sector or or the government uh or some other agency helps out but these kind of numbers being low like they are in other words here’s agencies if you will trying to help out by being able to make it a more comfortable and affordable technology um to me that’s very exciting and also like when you talk about

 

58:57
commercial if you will the uh developers the large developer if they put it in my understanding is and I I know I’m correct that there’s a 10% investment tax credit I believe so plus a 35% state tax credit right right that and there might there might even be federal tax credit under some conditions too well I understood that that 10% was a a federal if if there’s a 10% State one I’m not wasn’t even aware of it there may be a tax there may be a tax credit at the federal level for renewable energy also

 

59:27
oh I see used to be I’m not sure if that is if that’s already I know it’s I know that the 10% ITC is still there I just checked this morning the federal tax credit may have expired but certainly there’s a remaining tax uh state tax credit so just by example if a new development to go up in like you say if it was planned in to have space for these modules so they’re not on Isa in everyone’s you know way if you will MH that um the developer could take the tax credit and market a home home with these

 

59:57
kind of systems in it to me that sounds really attractive to a developer or could be it could be mhm right mhm if if you were drawing conclusions I know that they drew conclusions I’m just keeping the name of the company out until I talk later because endorsement is an an issue that we had discussed and I appreciate that um I’ll talk about that later distributed or residential units are more cost effective than centralized units because homes can use the hot water and okay and the heat residential

 

01:00:28
units provide electricity and are cost effective today for all electric homes and cost effective for some homes using non electric heating um we got to remember that very few homes in Hawaii have electric heating very few homes on Maui have electric okay heating now if we’re talking now maybe if we’re talking hot water heating certainly everybody’s almost everybody’s got that if we’re talking heating for uh because of temperature then very few homes have that heating so I’m not so I’m not sure

 

01:00:59
that that the heating that they talk about here I I’m assuming that it means hot water heating I think he’s just giving you know his expertise in his area I’m sure heating is an issue who would think that in Sunny Texas but anyway centralized can be coste effective if hot water is used I would think that unless you have some large clients that say like a hotel or whatever that the hot water couldn’t really be used how do you transfer that over a great distance would be a challenge I think

 

01:01:27
it could it would have probably have to be done with uh below ground pipes and with insulated pipes it can be done it just gets more expensive that’s and I guess that’s what they’re saying so again that’s saying res an individual might find it valuable but centralized it’s challenging I think what they’re saying is that if you can’t use the hot water output then the economics don’t look good um so that that’s what I’m reading out of these two or three paragraphs and that residential is by

 

01:01:53
far the way to go so that with a special kind of program residential might serve um you as an electric company to have to provide less it would provide the customer with their own system God forbid there’s a catastrophe than the power plant in Malaya you know we know it won’t be how much time do you want to talk about that that that’ll take up a whole another hour and a half okay but it would be nice to be able if you saw a storm coming to be able to take your couple of modules down and pack them away and then

 

01:02:23
they would be power if we saw a hurricane coming like um like Kawai electric saw with the Niki we would shut down most of the power plant knowing that the load on the system would be would decrease rapidly I see and and so what what Kawai did was uh simply take their power plants off a line and their distribution system got hit real badly the power plants had minor damage were able to return to service right afterwards but since there was no load to serve there wasn’t the power plants were kept shut down for quite a while I

 

01:02:53
have a a side question but it’s yeah go ahead why did they put in Wood poles again after the first time there was 10 years ago and then 10 years ago now this the third time they’re putting in wooden poles rather than something that might withstand hurricane is it because of time I couldn’t figure out why they do it again wood poles are are the are the cheaper um if we at at the distribution level if we talk transmission uh the higher voltage then uh both Kawai electric and we are now putting in steel

 

01:03:21
poles the ones like I see on the way up to Kola yeah those are those new ones are steel poles and the new line from Malaya to laa next year in 1996 those will be steel poles also and those and the reason for the change there is is because of the eniki experience that uh we wanted to upgrade our uh our wind criteria I want to ask a funny request I don’t know uh when I see utility poles if you could try to put them on the mountain side rather than the ocean side sometimes I’m driving along the highway

 

01:03:51
and I look up and there’s a beautiful view and somehow I’m framed with the line I’m thinking I wonder if they could put that on the other side of the street imagine you’re looking though normally it is on the on the mountain side uh simply so that it’s farther away from the beach and farther away from any wave uh wave action so um the exception should be poles on the maai side of the road normally they should be on the MAA are you developing any Tesla like transmission systems

 

01:04:16
where there’s no lines at all um like uh radio waves those are under investigation on the mainland but we’re not we’re not doing them right now okay so I guess the the conclusion of these numbers have a lot of digestion to do but residential customers using photovoltaic with thermal could conceivably find benefit and that would also help the electric company reduce its load right and thereby help slow down the uh need for power points right the thing to remember here is that um thermal

 

01:04:48
um or solar hot water heating thermal uh hot water heating has already been proven uh successful in many places in Hawaii uh what this system does is add the photovoltaic to it uh for the direct electricity in addition to hot water therefore theoretically it should be even more efficient and and economical over the long run I want to thank you for being here I’d like to bring Ariel in for a moment sure Ariel why don’t you come join us for a second we have a u a co-hostess here Ariel and I know that she’d like to say

 

01:05:20
goodbye to uh Tom Tom has been a very wonderful guest we want to thank him for being here thank you thank you Tom here’s arel Ariel please join us yeah here you go we’ll give Ariel this one give her a chance okay tell you what let’s let’s bring this up here like this fun I’m sorry I said I’m hanging here all over the place the hair the okay okay we we need some PR time here you know it’s we’ve got paper that’s all right the wind wind power is taking the is taking okay Jason wants to take a couple

 

01:06:01
more photographs here okay I just brought it out there a little bit Ariel I know you joined me in uh wanting to thank Tom for being here yes we really are very very grateful for you Tom to come and join us here in this beautiful place I love looking at El Valley from this spot it’s so magical again thank you Maui Arts and Cultural Center huh this yes thank you Maui Arts and Cultural Center so Tom we want to thank you for your time here and for all of your input on these numbers and oh you’re welcome arel I’m really

 

01:06:39
excited about the combination of knowing that we can combine solar with electric and therefore have whatever we need when we need it you know and help each other in that regard yeah thank you so thank you very much for coming and we’ll be seeing you soon I’m sure I hope so thank you Aloha bye- bye Aloha there is a technology available to us through a special Arrangement the Maui Arts and Music Association myself specifically have been involved in the renewable energy industry since the early

 

01:07:16
80s and uh I found through a lot of research through a PV USA photovoltaics for utility scale applications program that was put on by the department of energy and uh number of other companies in fact um we talked about it we referenced it in our segment they tested solar energy systems to see which were the highest rated systems that delivered the most energy Etc and the top rated system in this country is one based out of Dallas Texas a company called nech ENT entech makes solar concentrators now I’m going to be showing a little

 

01:07:58
segment so you’ll get an idea of what that technology is uh here in a little bit so I want you to First Look at that and then I’m going to talk to you about the numbers and what they proposed entech was organized almost 10 years ago by a leverage buyout from E Systems a large defense contractor our technology is primarily High concentrating solar photov voltages where we take a linear Fel length and magnify the Sun from 3 ft wide down to about an inch wide our best uh showcase installation

 

01:08:37
is one that we’ve installed in Austin Texas a 300 kwatt electrical system on the roof of a parking garage at a new 3M Research Center it provides electricity not only to 3M but also it’s tied into the grid so it provides electricity to the citizen of Boston this one cell in our configuration is equal in electricity over its lifetime to two barrels of oil in this configuration where we cool with water and then get hot water from that cooling is equal to two additional barrels of oil our first

 

01:09:14
commercial product we are now selling in South Africa it has its beginning with cell Wafers that we buy from BP Solar in Madrid we get them at our plant here in inch process them with our high technology and then ship those components to our partner firm in South Africa they in turn assemble those in our total modules take them out to The Villages install them and for the first time these Villages have real electricity [Music] photovoltaic cells were first used in space satellites required a source of

 

01:10:09
electricity that could last for years without consuming Fuel and photov voltax provided a perfect solution now photov voltax is bringing solar electricity to Earth photovoltaic cells transform the energy of light directly into electricity by a process so simple that it almost seems magical when photons of light enter a cell they collide with atoms transferring their energy to electrons which move through the cell and into wires at the surface continuous exposure to light creates a continuous flow of

 

01:10:51
electricity there are several different photovoltaic systems available able today but they work on the same Principle as sunlight falls on the cells it is directly converted into direct current or DC electricity an inverter then changes the DC electricity into an alternating current or AC power that is compatible with most Electric Systems linear Focus concentrators use curv plastic lenses to focus light onto a row of cells modules are relatively simple to manufacture and and overall efficiencies are nearly as high as Point

 

01:11:28
Focus systems costs of concentrating systems and advanced thin film modules have the potential to become economically competitive for Central Station power applications one of the most Innovative solar collector systems on the market today is located in the heart of the Dallas Fort Worth airport in the state of Texas this versatile system which provides the airport with both hot water and electricity was designed and constructed by ntech Incorporated the entech system is unique in that it utilizes a linear frenel lens to

 

01:12:01
concentrate the sun’s rays and thus captures a large portion of available solar light energy this lens is a thin durable clear acrylic plastic sheet with tiny facets that efficiently redirect and focus sunlight to a narrow line of solar photovoltaic cells the cells convert the sunlight into direct current electricity a fluid-filled cooling tube behind the solar cells extracts the heat generated by the intense sunlight maintaining the cells at a designed temperature in the Dallas Ford worth system the resulting hot water is used

 

01:12:33
by the nearby anac Hotel while the electricity is used at the airport Central utility plant to power lights and pumping [Music] Motors if an energy user needs only electricity and has no use for heat a radiator is used behind the solar cells and the heat is dissipated into the environment when only heat energy is needed the solar cells in the focus of sunlight are placed by a black coated tube in which fluid is heated to a desired temperature and pumped to where heat is needed entex design makes this collector

 

01:13:05
able to meet a wide variety of energy needs from very small kilowatt to large megawatt size applications electric motor-driven irrigation systems electricity and heat for homes Villages and towns air conditioning co-generation of electricity and heat for industrial or commercial processing power for electrical utility grids alternatives for diesel or gasoline powered electrical generators NX forel lens collector system has been proven to be one of the most efficient and versatile collectors in the world it has been tested by the

 

01:13:40
US Department of energy the Sandia National Laboratories and the US Solar Energy Research Institute the Simplicity of its design enables it to be manufactured easily and inexpensively anywhere in the world inch is now establishing licensing Arrangements with companies outside the United States the entech forel lens solar collector system focusing on your energy needs today photovoltaic systems may also be an attractive option for independent power producers who sell some of the electricity they generate to the local

 

01:14:14
utility in Austin Texas a 300 KW system is being tested on the roof of the parking garage at a new 3M Company office the system is tied to the utility distribution Network as well as into the garage here so during the day some of the power goes into the lights and the excess goes into the city grid system the photovoltaic system puts out power in the afternoon or the peak period when we require it the most and then at night we can sell our off peak cheap energy to the commercial customer so we we would

 

01:14:47
like to encourage this kind of a setup this system uses lenses to concentrate the Sun so fewer solar cells are needed the project was a Cooperative effort of the US Department of energy the state of Texas the City of Austin electric utility 3M and ntech the system produces approximately 300 Kow worth of power uh it provides power for the lighting load on the parking ramp the lighting load is approximately 90 KW the Excess power is fit into the utility grid and utility then utilizes it for approximately 100

 

01:15:20
homes within the region this illustrates the concept of concentrating the light by using a plastic Fel lens and concentrating it down to a small photov Volt take cell for the production of electricity these eighth graders from Carver Academy in Waco are studying energy at school and they got a chance to move the classroom to energy Park Tu Electric’s demonstration facility near DFW Airport here Tu is focusing on renewable sources of energy several rows of solar panels are under construction

 

01:15:53
nearby are some giant wind turbines the students learn how the solar panels act like magnifying glasses to focus the power of the Sun how does it work that takes and magnifies all the sunlight from the Sun that’s coming here and hits down on the solar cell and then that makes electricity the solar cell is the key to the whole process Texas is now coming up to speed and there’s a great deal of interest in Texas Bob Walters is Vice President of ntech the Dallas Fort Worth company which attempts to cut the the cost of

 

01:16:25
solar power by using lenses to focus more of the sun’s Rays on a fewer number of costly solar cells inch is working on solar deals with TU Electric Central and Southwest Corporation and with Pakistan and other countries overseas the Technologies are there we’ve got the technology that’s the frustrating part but the economics is not right if the economics become right through tax breaks or trade agreements or because people are willing to pay for new cleaner technology solar generators could become as popular

 

01:16:58
as satellite dishes the fact that we can use photovoltaic uh solar and be able to concentrate light through a linear Fel lens to concentrate the available sunlight and thereby use less PV material makes the cost of these systems potentially less the fact that we can take the waste heat and use it for heating of water really is a very Dynamic and exciting thing the system itself this entech brochure you’ll see the system itself is uh as the clip showed a very effective way of generating hot water

 

01:17:47
and a very effective way of generating electricity the PV USA program which we talked about Tom jerni and I is one that checked out systems if you will for you and I to be able to best know which systems were delivering the highest performance and which systems would be most effective in all climates they had a number of locations where they tested different systems we here had a low performing example in the modules that are sitting up there above the research and Technology Park what I would like to see

 

01:18:26
everyone recognize is the opportunity that entech has specially created now these numbers that were sent uh you can get in touch with us PO Box 356 sweet 208 Pia Hawaii 96779 Maui Arts and Music Association and uh put on there if you will on the outside so we’ll get it to the right spot regarding Nico Meco ma electric company and our solar opportunity the reason this this works on noncommercial television the Maui Arts and Music Association through uh work from me has set up a special arrangement with entech where prices

 

01:19:08
that they’re going to be offering in this program are virtually unavailable anywhere in the world what I told them is this we have high utility rates here and if a large enough number of homeowners or Central systems through um uh developers or utility company but very likely new construction and retrofit homeowners you and I I don’t own a home but if I did I would be and I imagine I will be someday here soon but people that own a home consider the fact that you can raise the value of your home you can put in a

 

01:19:49
solar energy system let me read some numbers to you now you heard Tom talk earlier that these numbers that we were talking about were low lower than the systems that he’s been hearing about for 20 25,000 through local installation and the fact is it’s true they were delivering 2 to three kilowatt hours for 202,000 here we’re talking about 3.6 kilowatt hours and we’re talking about if one of you individually homeowners want to do it right now $9,800 for system to do the same that’s

 

01:20:26
very low if we can amass 2500 or more homeowners that are interested what we want is a signed contract and agreement that if we get certain number of systems that you are interested in installing it at this rate upon a number of signed agreements 2500 or more we will be able to get a price of not 9800 per system but $5,900 per system which is very very low consider that this is a system that has a 30-year design life consider also there’s a 35% state of Hawaii tax credit a tax credit is important for you to

 

01:21:07
understand that comes off the bottom of your tax bill if you owe the government $33,000 in tax and you have a $2,800 tax credit you only owe the government $200 if you have a $1,000 of tax bill and you have a $2,800 tax credit not only only do you eliminate your tax bill for this year but you can go back a number of years and reclaim dollars that were already pledged and paid to the IRS or if you don’t use them all you can carry them forward as well but this is off your tax bill so that’s very significant

 

01:21:41
it’s not just the tax write off where your bracket is the significant indicator of its value to you so for example $9,800 system now 3430 tax credit means the real cost is $637 total now if we all do it which is the plan that I’m proposing to you $5,900 $265 in tax credit means for only $3,800 or $ 4.46 per watt um meaning we now are virtually competing in cost of fuel oil and we as individuals can install these systems on our homes lower the um demand for electric which will slow the need for building of power

 

01:22:33
plants on this island and won’t increase our utility rates in that process we here on Maui know Maui is a beautiful place and we also know that if we could use Maui as a global example place for renewable energy technology it would bring people from all over the world to see this incredibly wonderful thing that’s happened what I would like to do is encourage you to get in touch with me both individuals and groups who are interested in exploring this more and subsequently soliciting homeowners and groups to

 

01:23:08
better understand this program and getting them to subscribe with us this is a special opportunity that is not available in any markets in the world anywhere this is a special program put together through the Maui Arts and Music Association to give Maui an opportunity to do some something which would be wonderful for us which is give us another reason for people to come here besides just vacationing when we talk about wanting to develop an ecotourism destination this is a clean and safe way of doing it and it is also one that will

 

01:23:41
help the long-term development of our Island consider the fact that we have 2500 or more systems 5,000 or so modules or more that it makes sense for the manufacturer to assemble mble the parts here and to manufacture some of the parts here and to have them installed here because they’s such a high demand and excuse me because the use of these will spread through the islands because of our high utility rate this can mean an additional industry for Maui that would support tourism yet diversify our

 

01:24:18
economy and create jobs outside of Tourism I would like you to know these numbers here are pretty staggering on how cost effective it is when Tom Jer was talking about the present rate of power um present rate of electricity being 14 cents per kilowatt approximately with subsequent increases from the demand side management program and who knows what the future will bring imagine you can put a system on your house now it would take a year year and a half for this program to really get initiated but that commitment now will

 

01:24:57
make this all possible um you could have a system on your house and when the system is paid for you have an incredible 30-year design system that is delivering you energy day in and day out and that’s pretty special the other thing that’s really special is that we here on Maui how can I put this nicely we are on Maui are blessed truly blessed with a beautiful place to live and we’d like to keep it that way I don’t think that you’ll find anyone in our community that would disagree with that the fact that

 

01:25:35
we can work hand inand with our electric company and work hand in hand with ourselves and Empower ourselves to implement these Solutions here is really what it’s about the Maui Arts and Music Association has made an arrangement with entech where any monies that we would make through doing this if we were salespeople and we might make a a three or four or 5% commission whatever it may be instead of those dollars coming to me Jason we’re donating all the money to the Maui Arts and Music Association our

 

01:26:10
nonprofit organization for further development of environmental programs and also to supplement the development of Art and music programs that will show our art music and culture our Healing Arts our Visual Arts all over the world and show the world through a series of products compact discs a quarterly program guide and magazine our art and music and Environmental Solutions that we are planning and implementing here on Maui for the whole world to see so it’s sort of an integrated package I am sure

 

01:26:42
that some of you know me but some of you do not when I ran last year for political office the most important thing I was running for was to bring out the facts and the facts are that with an opportunity like like this we can have technology that will be tomorrow’s technology all over the world except there’s a window of time now with this opportunity where we can bring it here now and have people from all over the world coming here to see this so we can supplement and strengthen our tourism industry and supplement and

 

01:27:17
strengthen our local economy additionally that’s a pretty terrific combination rather than digest these numbers with you over the screen and I could I think it would be very effective if you would call 573 3100 or write to us and we will get back in touch with you just as soon as we can I am very glad you watch this show I hope you will encourage others to view this show and if they own a home to say yes with us it’s just as easy to say yes as as anything this opportunity you won’t be bound by

 

01:27:57
anything when the time comes that we do these systems you will want this deal this is a very exciting deal the fact that we can have photovoltaic and thermal generating hot water and electricity and be able to have a price like this is staggering the fact that this is not technology that is in research and development this is a system that is available right now is very exciting the only reason you don’t see it all over right now is the cost per unit has been too high this is our opportunity

 

01:28:32
Maui we look forward to talking you further about this again you’ve been uh really attentive thank you for your patience and listening about this very important subject and we hope that we’ll get comments from you and we look forward to enrolling people in this program and really having people understand the Maui Arts and Music Association has a purpose and now we have a very pointed purpose to raise money and attention to this program that we’re doing to help art music and the cultures of our Islands when I say art I

 

01:29:05
really want it clear we mean Visual Arts we mean Healing Arts we mean all kinds of Arts we mean music we mean the cultures of our Islands Hawaiian all the other cultures of our island of our Islands boy I’m tongue twisting today here we have an opportunity that I guess I’ve said that a few times we won’t have again let us find this opportunity and let it grow in our hearts and realize that this is something that can’t be beat we have an opportunity have our cake and eat it too thank you again and this is Jason

 

01:29:45
Schwarz for Jason and Airielle of the Maui Arts and Music Association aloha
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