Acupuncturist MICHAEL HOWDEN

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Jason Schwartz with Acupuncturist MICHAEL HOWDEN . In response to last week’s guest, Jason asked Howden to be a guest to clarify acupuncture and the concepts of complimentary medicine as compared to conventional western medicine. Conversations is open, refreshing and expansive in conceptualizing our health care and ourselves.   SOUND ONLY 3-11-2019

Summary & Transcript Below…

1. 1. 1. Interview with Michael Howden, Acupuncturist

1. 1. 1. 1. [00:00 → 02:51] Introduction and Background on Acupuncture in America

• The interview begins with Jason Schwartz introducing Michael Howden, an acupuncturist with over 30 years of experience practicing on Maui.
• Michael is described as “extraordinary” in his field, highlighting the longstanding presence and growing acceptance of acupuncture in the United States.
• Schwartz and Howden discuss the historical context of acupuncture’s introduction to America, noting initial skepticism and controversy, especially during the 1980s when exposure through media like PBS began to raise awareness.
• Michael recounts personal experience through his wife’s treatment of carpal tunnel syndrome with acupuncture, which was highly effective without surgery. This anecdote illustrates acupuncture’s practical benefits and the positive outcomes that sparked further interest.
• They acknowledge that acupuncture and complementary medicine have had critics, often from those with little direct experience, and discuss how media and documentaries helped educate the public about concepts like “chi” and qi gong.

1. 1. 1. 1. [02:51 → 07:19] Traditional Medicine vs. Conventional Medicine; Spirituality in Healing

• Michael shares a story about his close friend, Uncle Kahlua, a Hawaiian traditional healer, who emphasized that indigenous healing systems are thousands of years old compared to conventional Western medicine’s relatively recent history.
• He stresses the importance of recognizing that conventional medicine is just one paradigm and that traditional medicine systems like acupuncture have deep cultural roots and spiritual dimensions.
• The conversation touches on the spiritual nature of healing, quoting Michael’s primary teacher Papa Henry who believed 80-85% of healing is spiritual, with herbs and physical treatments being only a small component.
• They contrast the humility required in traditional healing approaches with the sometimes authoritarian attitude of conventional doctors, who may act as the “supreme rulers” rather than facilitators of healing.
• Michael emphasizes the acupuncturist’s role as a guide and facilitator of the patient’s own healing journey, rather than a miracle worker making absolute guarantees.

1. 1. 1. 1. [07:19 → 13:55] Practical Experiences and Patient Stories

• Michael discusses his work with a wide variety of patients, including veterans suffering from Agent Orange-related illnesses and cancer patients facing severe challenges.
• He recounts an example of a cancer patient who chose radiation but also used herbs Michael provided, resulting in her recovery and gratitude, though he cautiously avoids making definitive claims about cures, emphasizing healing as a process.
• Another story involves a patient who used herbs as a sleep aid, placing them under her pillow, illustrating the diverse ways patients receive and benefit from treatments.
• The conversation addresses the skepticism some people hold toward acupuncture, noting that practitioners generally do not promise cures but seek to harmonize the body’s energies and support self-healing.
• Michael highlights the importance of intuition and deep listening in diagnosis, referring to the ability of healers to “read” a person’s condition upon entering the room, an intuitive skill supported by traditional methods like pulse-taking.

1. 1. 1. 1. [13:55 → 17:51] Acupuncture Education and Professional Standards

• Michael clarifies the difference between “traditional medicine” (like acupuncture and herbal medicine) and conventional allopathic medicine, emphasizing the value of traditional knowledge passed down through generations.
• He talks about his own educational path, which included a tutorial program rather than formal school initially, and later involvement as a site inspector for acupuncture school accreditation.
• Michael critiques the quality of some acupuncture schools, noting that in the past, many programs were thin and inconsistent, with some schools closing or failing to provide proper transcripts.
• He stresses the importance of ongoing education beyond licensing, highlighting that a license is akin to a “learner’s permit” and that true mastery requires continuous learning.
• The discussion touches on the challenges students face, especially with subjects like chemistry, and the difficulties conventional doctors have in integrating holistic views.

1. 1. 1. 1. [17:51 → 24:08] Integration with Conventional Medicine and Use of Herbs

• Michael shares his experience working alongside conventional medicine practitioners, including osteopathic physicians like Jackson Friedman, who bring a compassionate and holistic approach.
• He describes patients who come to him after receiving dire prognoses from conventional medicine, often carrying heavy medication burdens, and how acupuncture provides them relief and peace, even if temporarily.
• Michael critiques the overuse and toxicity of some pharmaceutical drugs, such as statins, and discusses the potential of herbal medicine as a safer alternative, though stressing the need for quality control in herbal supplies.
• He explains that acupuncture represents only a small fraction (10-15%) of Chinese medicine, with herbs playing a major role.
• The conversation touches briefly on aromatherapy and essential oils, which Michael respects but does not personally use extensively, preferring to refer patients to specialists in that area.

1. 1. 1. 1. [24:08 → 30:09] Community Engagement, Supporters, and Local Initiatives

• Jason takes a moment to thank community supporters of the radio show and announces local events, including a salon featuring a speaker on medical marijuana.
• The broadcast highlights other community programs and youth culture shows on the station, stressing the importance of community connection and support for local media.
• Michael reintroduces himself and shares his contact information for listeners interested in acupuncture treatment or referrals.
• The interview shifts back to Michael’s close collaboration with osteopathic physician Jackson Friedman, highlighting the synergy between their healing approaches and mutual respect.
• They discuss the rarity and value of practitioners who combine skill, compassion, and a holistic outlook, lamenting the difficulty in finding such dedicated healers.

1. 1. 1. 1. [30:09 → 37:32] Reflections on Modern Society, Technology, and Healing

• Michael reflects on generational differences, noting how technology and a fast-paced culture have shortened attention spans and diminished deeper learning and spiritual connection.
• He quotes a Sufi teacher humorously attributing American men’s poor romantic skills to the short length of 45 rpm records—symbolizing the brevity of modern focus.
• The conversation touches on how modern education has even eliminated teaching cursive writing, signaling a loss of traditional skills and depth.
• Michael and Jason muse on how the rapid technological changes may be controlled by forces beyond our control but hope for healing and deeper human connection in future generations.
• They discuss the importance of slowing down, developing presence, and cultivating humility in healing professions and in life.

1. 1. 1. 1. [37:32 → 44:48] Measuring and Understanding Acupuncture Results

• Michael discusses the difficulty of quantifying acupuncture’s effects with conventional medical testing and the reliance on patient feedback and nurse charting.
• He stresses that the core of acupuncture is the patient’s own healing capability, which the practitioner facilitates rather than controls.
• The discussion highlights that acupuncture is not just for pain relief but can promote overall well-being, better sleep, reduced irritability, and a more balanced life.
• Michael warns that having a license does not guarantee skill or effectiveness; practitioners vary widely in ability and approach.
• He advises patients to be discerning and open-minded and acknowledges that sometimes referrals to other practitioners are the best course.
• Jason shares his own positive experience with a local acupuncturist, Aaron Goldstein, who exemplifies a holistic, patient-centered approach.

1. 1. 1. 1. [44:48 → 54:13] Collaboration and Limitations in Conventional Medicine

• They discuss the limited time doctors have with patients (often only 5-8 minutes), which impedes holistic care and meaningful connection.
• Michael values manual diagnostic methods like palpation and pulse-taking over reliance on technology alone, emphasizing the importance of “tasting” or sensing the patient’s condition directly.
• There is a shortage of acupuncturists on Maui, but overall in places like California, the field is flourishing with many practitioners available.
• Michael stresses that acupuncture can help with pain, general aches, and deeper emotional or spiritual tensions caused by modern life pressures.
• The interview touches on the fragmented nature of conventional medicine specialties and occasional collaboration within institutions like Kaiser Permanente.
• Michael praises local physicians at Kula Hospital who integrate compassion and community care, and mentions his own hospital privileges as a complementary practitioner.

1. 1. 1. 1. [54:13 → 56:29] Final Thoughts, Advice, and Closing Remarks

• Michael offers practical advice to the audience: trust yourself, maintain common sense, and keep a good sense of humor.
• He encourages people to explore complementary medicine thoughtfully and not to be bullied or pressured by practitioners, regardless of their licenses.
• The conversation closes with appreciation for the time spent discussing acupuncture in depth, hoping the audience gained a deeper understanding beyond stereotypes or superficial views.

1. 1. 1. Key Insights

• Acupuncture is part of a holistic health paradigm that integrates spiritual, physical, and energetic aspects of healing.
• Traditional medicine traditions often predate and differ significantly from conventional Western medicine, with a strong emphasis on humility and facilitating the body’s own healing.
• Patient-centered care, deep listening, and personalized treatments distinguish effective acupuncture practice from mere symptom management.
• Integration between conventional and complementary medicine is growing but remains challenging due to differing philosophies, training, and healthcare systems.
• Herbal medicine is a crucial component of Chinese medicine, with ongoing concerns about quality and standardization.
• Modern society’s fast pace and technology present both challenges and opportunities for healing and health education.
• Practical advice for patients includes openness, careful discernment, and trusting one’s own experience in navigating healthcare choices.

1. 1. 1. Keywords

Acupuncture, Traditional Medicine, Complementary Medicine, Holistic Healing, Herbal Medicine, Spiritual Healing, Patient-Centered Care, Conventional Medicine, Osteopathy, Pain Management, Veterans, Cancer, Quality of Life, Healthcare Integration, Maui, Education, Healing Philosophy, Technology and Healing, Community Health, Trust and Common Sense.

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[Music] good morning everyone this is Jason Schwartz it’s Monday at 11:00 and we’re here at the neutral zone welcome [Music] [Music] the time watch his hand [Music] [Music] hello hello everyone this is Jason Schwartz we are on kaku 88.5 FM the voice of maui I’m Jason Schwartz here with a great guest today we have an acupuncturist extraordinary here on Maui I say extraordinary sound like Major Garrett from CNN but Michael Howden welcome to our show Michael thank you Jason Michael has been

01:31

an acupuncturist for many years how many years Oh more than 30 more than 30 years and so many of you and I’d say that name you go well either you tell me you’re going to him or you’ve gone to him occupant you’re over these last 30 years has really accelerated into the consciousness of America yes oh it has indeed and over those 30 years I bet that day you’ve had a few critics along the way of all kinds well people generally have no experience other than what they read in the newspaper

02:11

obviously different things that you saw on PBS like Bill Moyers show and things like that where they talked about chi gong and chi and like that with David Eisenberg I thought was you know use a useful introduction this is many years ago I think back in the eighties summer oh that’s the 1980s for you young guys haha this is now 2019 so experience in America when he was talking about an introduction in the 80s so let’s count with us so that’s 40 years ago maybe and even then it was somewhat controversial

02:51

I got married in 1978 to a young lady in Los Angeles and she went to California acupuncture College in Westwood that only lasted a couple of years and anyway long story short I have known acupuncture for a long time I’ve seen incredible incredible gains she had a carpal tunnel syndrome happened in the hospital literally wanted to operate in a chiropractor guy out there blonde blue-eyed American chiropractor named Alan Francis six needles two treatments later and problem never returned that says a lot to me

03:32

personally and then she was studying occupy sure after that experience that was like a revelation you have that kind of stuff regularly I imagine in your practice well I think the big thing especially with what’s called complementary medicine I I will say a give you a short story I is to spend a lot of time with uncle Kahlua God Nepali yeah kya hua and he he we were Kim very close friends and he told me one time the governor had called him to some kind of conference in the governor’s chambers

04:19

with medical doctors and and you know traditional Hawaiian healers and one of the medical doctors was saying well in traditional medicine this is what we do and uncle kahlúa turned to him he said excuse me he said your medicine is a hundred two hundred years old our medicine thousands have your result you know so please don’t call it traditional and you know I would say contention would be a very good word for the paradigms that we see at present very much better conventional medicine right

05:03

and then this convention I want to say when was the guy with the operation forgot his name Lister I like to think of anti e oh y’all do know your New York Times reporter Reston James frost James Dean Lister was when they first started doing surgery Lister who became not Listerine folks list there was a doctor that first introduced this antibiotic but prior to that the word occupant er was well known throughout the world for example as ours like you said Kahlua and the Hawaiian traditional medicine and I imagine the

05:48

Hawaiian medicine is also an interesting cross between acupuncture do you see a lot of I I the match I see are has really been you know it’s the accomplished practitioners on papa Henry or Y for instance my own teacher my own primary teacher in lala Paul said that healing is 80 85 % spiritual and the herbs the Lao is a small part and now it’s actually you know you see that in in traditional medicines whether it’s fools crow among the Lakotas or esoteric Christian work where you understand that

06:38

you’re simply an instrument rather than the the Big Show right and I think that that sense of inner humility is really important Sola Faceman which gosh you know you walk into some offices and you that you think the person is a prophet you know they they speak with certainty they say you don’t have any hope unless you do this particular Oh protocol it cetera you’re good okay yeah you mean traditional traditional contempt what do we call it if we got already conventional conventional conventional

07:19

doctors and medicine and offices put the doctors and some of the doctors take the role of the supreme ruler and the all-knowing and the cause of the healing rather than a vehicle to refer give the person charge themselves and help them along their own Road toward healing it’s a different kind of setup you know our role is to receive and facilitate you know especially like my practice some in recent years has been mostly veterans and you know who are at risk on all levels I mean some people came back from

08:05

Vietnam with their bodies riddled with cancer you know because of ancient Agent Orange and other poisons and you know someone comes to you and you learn to love them but you can’t lie to them from the very beginning you can say oh there’s no problem I mean sometimes people would come in with all kinds of things that I had never treated I just say well I can’t guarantee anything but I’ll do my best and if and if it begins to work for you then great do you as a puncture doctor was the word I gave an example of carpal

08:50

tunnel syndrome I don’t know if that’s a considered a physical you know a more physical problem you treat all kinds of different things you have an area that occupant your works better or because of all the different meridians and systems you work on all kinds of stuff well I ended up working on all kinds of stuff and without guarantees I mean one time one of my teachers patients came to me and said oh I have some kind of cancer at this or that stage and I said well you should go see my teacher he’s so

09:30

good a nice generation Chinese doctor dr. Lam Cong and she said no I’m I you know I’m guided to see her radiation event and um so I get I gave her a pack of herbs and I said you know this will take a while and you know I expect it would take at least a year year and a half at least and if we’re successful and then I didn’t see her again I thought oh gosh you know you know that happens I saw her later you know a year or two later and she was well and she thanked me profusely for the one bag of herbs which

10:17

before God you know in that so silly but I was happy with her attitude no it’s happy that she was healed but I to make a claim Oh based on that was fulfilling I think no did she do other modalities what I don’t know it didn’t seem like she had really done much but I’m sure she took better care of herself I mean that’s a big thing with you know serious illness um you know cancers on the like where you know you have to look inside you have to this is like that real Capone in sonnets

10:58

to Orpheus we’re the bust of Apollo and he describes this headless torso and it’s totally sensual and you can you can feel the body that he’s talking about and then the last line of it which in German is much more powerful it’s kind of like do a dish you know you must you must change your life and I think with with real illness that’s one of the it’s a wake up call yeah you know so and someone gets better after a consultation and a bag of herbs you may have moved here in a road toward self-healing

11:40

well while I was still a tutorial student someone came to me in Berkeley and they said oh I’m guided to come see you and I kept saying you know don’t waste my time I’m I’m a student go see my teacher he’s much much better and in fact there’s no comparison and came back insisted on coming back and I made herbs for him and to the hockey puck sure he came back and I said well how are you doing he said oh I feel so much better I said well I guess I should make you some words he said oh that’s not a problem he

12:21

said I put the bag of herbs under my pillow at night and I sleep on the herbs no you know only and basura clay in San Francisco but you never know how you reach someone or how they receive well you know as I’m listening to the one thing that I am feeling is your I would say not defending occupy when someone we had a guest here last week his name’s Kurt Butler yes familiar with and he’s he’s a guy who was trying to poke holes at things so I’m as I’m hearing you you really never treat a patient like you’re

13:10

coming as God and you’re going to cure them so when someone like this guy last week is talking about someone making claims of cure you could probably say well they claim of cure is really not a real good rule for a practitioner yeah I mean in fear of the Prophet Jesus that’s one thing you know but but to lie to someone and say oh this isn’t you know my teacher often says not a problem don’t worry you know and I think that don’t worry the important thing is that the whole point of occupy sure is to harmonize the

13:55

energies of the body you’re treating the person you’re not treating them the symptoms of the illness so yeah it’s a different it’s a different level approach and I I know with Papa Henry who would also take different pulses in the body and scan the body with his hands but he would also know the problem when a person walked into the room because I was there several times when he would be treating people he would catch it right away the flower remedy person in England at Edmund Bach he said

14:35

if I don’t understand what the person’s problem is by the time they sit down I missed the case and I think that that’s it asks you to really receive and traditional medicine asks that you receive that you’re you become an instrument for the divine healing power by the way I want to make sure everyone understands by traditional medicine you’re talking about actually traditional medicine I’m not talking about allopathic that’s why I’m imagining it again so you’re talking

15:12

about it’s not a really alternative medicine traditional medicine acupuncture and herbs right what do you call that by definition oh yeah it can be I mean some of what’s taught these days I mean I ended up working for thee even though I never went to occupy for school oh oh and did a tutorial program in California you take the same tests everyone takes but ironically because I was then on the board of occupy sure the accreditation Commission recruited me to be a site inspector for accreditation

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site visits and I of course I learned so much from that but I also learned that you know many of the schools kind of thin and certainly when I studied in them early in mid-80s I remember my teacher telling me oh he pretended he was driving car he was holding the wheel of the car he said acupuncture license he said like learner’s permit and and to me that was profound and and it helped me really keep a perspective I mean he always emphasized education going deeper and deeper with the medicine but the schools

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per se were not a solution I mean now many of the schools are better it used to be maybe you had one good teacher out of school I understand I mean I can tell you from this California acupuncture college lasted I want to say a few years and then she couldn’t get a transcript because the school was yeah and so it she had a real issue from that but you just gave me her answer she can go study and take the test anyway probably on you know if you know that in California still they have tutorial programs a few

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other states have done I mean Hawaii was going to close the window just about the time I was gonna get a Hawaii license fortunately I had already taken the national exam so you know I was qualified and but no it’s so you know transcripts I mean that’s true small schools whether you’re one of the Trump University is there are universities we won’t go there no no my ex-wife well I remember when she was going to school and she was so afraid of chemistry and then she became the Wiz organic chemistry was her thing she what

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if she goes to see conventional doctors and I want to say by her nature so to test them she has a difficult time with them because they don’t really have a lot of excuse me there are obviously exceptions but I’ve seen that doctors don’t want to walk outside this the modality conventional world they’re in do you have much crossover with conventional medicine well I cool a hospital I share my office with an osteopathic physician who’s actually one of the best healers I’ve ever met

18:30

Jackson Friedman and if I go to a regular doctor I’m often going to Joel Friedman no relation but but they both they both have an openness and a fluidity and a depth of understanding and compassion that sometimes you just don’t see I mean I meet so many people and let’s say they have cancer or something like that they basically received a death sentence you know unless you do this you’ll die well we die anyway that’s not as this there’s such a thing as death but um you know talked about you me about them

19:14

that’s right um well I’ve Bodhi odd but he has his own show death tracks oh well you know it’s non-competitive right well but that’s a subject but death aside people come to you you find that many of your patients come on the heals of conventional medicine giving them that kind of a sentence or you have patients for all kinds of stuff well I remember one one patrin who might I really love his name I can’t mention but just HIPPA stuff but they give you the VA gives you this little sheet and they tell you what

19:57

kind of medications the person’s on along with whatever they’re being treated so anyway he was taking more than 20 pharmaceuticals which are not to be messed with and and so the first thing I did I didn’t even know I might just kind of leaned over I said it seems to mean that they’re trying to kill you when she turned him to me because he could tell I wasn’t going to make up stories for him but I can see every month he had to go to the hospital he had cancer throughout his body and he’d

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have to go to the hospitals get a throat opened just on a monthly basis and life was very difficult for him very miserable and I actually said to him you know I’m happy to treat you more than once a week I just want I won’t charge you I mean because the VA thing you know you don’t want to fool around with that you know a lot of too much paper and he said this one hour of the week he just felt totally at peace and could rest and was out of pain and I thought gosh an hour is better than nothing I would like

21:17

to get more but you know those kinds of experiences really deepen you because I touched your heart directly well well you know you speak about acupuncture with reverence which I appreciate and I I’m still thinking about our guy last week because that flame that he seems to like to throw around you know he and I you know I recognize someone putting a full-page ad with kind of fluffy testimonials and a whole page expecting people and what she has may be valid but I’d like to understand proof and we’re

22:02

talking now about acupuncture I originally thought okay that acupuncture I’ve seen many people we can measure the their difference before and after acupuncture treatments and you’ve mentioned it but even then you’re gentle and in even accepting responsibility for their helping him in that you know it’s like you gave them an hour of pain relief which is valid but now you’ve set them on a path as a holistic person you looked at their medication if someone is going every month to have their throat opened to be

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eat you know the quality of their life is there I don’t know what these medical all these medications for oh pain and possibly digestion I mean it was just so overwhelming and it’s all in Greek Greek anyway so and it’s hard to understand but I understand some of them better but I generally try not to go there unless I have to really study a particular medicine because it’s not you know like the statins for instance so much of that can be addressed with herbal medicine you know just and that’s historically

23:25

been proven and why give someone a medicine that can actually lead to heart problems you know to prevent heart problems and you know there are so many some medicines I think to me useful and some are just so powerful and so toxic because people don’t know what to take instead of a statin drug right well that’s true and then there’s so much fluff you know and so-called health foods industry and stuff like that and you’re buying a bottle of something you don’t know what that is you don’t know

24:08

how much of it you need to make a therapeutic to have it do something or whether it even has their pity right the ingredients are what they say they are so interesting because of you as a as an occupied practitioner you when you use herbs you base what you use based on experience mostly you know my teacher was well known as one of the young masters in the Bay Area and study with Professor young kid always loved herbs his whole life not generation doctor and that was really his specialty I mean he was famous for

24:54

erock you puncture and but you know acupuncture is just maybe 10 to 15 percent of what Chinese medicine actually is I mean there is a tremendous emphasis on our herbal medicine and unfortunately it’s really hard to find clean supplies of the herbs there are a few companies like spring wind at Berkeley that do a very good job and new herbs in Oakland have you used oils therapeutic you know you’ve seen these yes doTERRA kind of oils that are pure did you ever use those instead of no I’m not

25:33

really conversing with that to the degree that I you know then I would refer to someone who’s good with aromatherapy I see you know I mean it’s better to you know if you I’ve heard so many great stories about quality aromatherapy but then there’s all the other stuff too and I think that’s what your former your guest last week was talking about is there’s so much fluff and it’s hard to know what the substance is but that’s true you know any profession as far as I can say anything

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in our world okay unfortunately yeah well then you know what I what can I jump to a few minutes of our supporters and then we’re gonna come back I’m here with Michael Hayden knock you punk jurist from upcountry Kula many years I’m Jason Schwartz kak you 88.5 let me lean over and start this the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz I would like to thank Maui Arts and Music Association tree makers Foundation of Maui for their support since 1991 with hundreds of television shows and their maui arts and music comm

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website they have championed self-sustainability on mouth the neutral zone is heard live Mondays at 11 a.m. and replayed Saturday at 7 a.m. on kak u 88.5 FM the voice of maui the ikkaku upstairs spring salon season has begun every Thursday evening between now and the end of April by March 14th Michael Backus author of the book cannabis pharmacy will share the truths and myths about medical marijuana these salons are held 6:00 to 7:30 p.m. Thursdays in the ikkaku media lab suite 204 on the second

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floor of ikkaku Center at 333 dairy Road in Cabo Louie and admission is free however we do ask that you call and reserve a seat at eight seven one five five five four [Music] now you youth now show focusing on youth culture today this weekly half-hour show it’s produced by and created for you taking the pulse of youth culture from an island perspective watch local news turn events fun challenges trending videos game reviews and learn about other youth in your community new episodes are on Tuesday at 4:30 p.m.

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on Alpha 255 or tetris on Vimeo this is your videos be real are away from Latino connection connect with us and K aku 88 or 5 every Friday at 12 p.m. and every play on Saturday at 3 p.m. in this show we explore the Latin community in Hawaii and every Latin country and their traditions on also music from popular Latin music artists right here on kak you 88.5 the voice of Maui i’ma tanks hosts of 2 k g:k aku is a listener-supported station all of the shows you hear like ours are sponsored by you the listener as well as our

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underwriters if you would like to help keep the voice of Maui talking loud and clear go to kak u FM org slash donate today and give and don’t miss – Katie Monday is live at 3 p.m. on kak you 88.5 FM the voice of Maui yeah well I guess we’re right back in that was kinda unsmooth this is kak you 88.5 FM in Kahului Maui I’m Jason Schwartz your host of the neutral zone and I am with a special guest I want to call you dr. Michael Hatton but I’m gonna call you what do you want me to call you acupuncture is

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Michael Howden or just Michael is Mike yeah Michael is a practitioner of occupant and has helped hello man count more than the hands more than the hands on my feet does that mean the is that you know it can be confusing all this well you have been a name on my mind and in my thoughts when I asked my ex-wife about acupuncture restore she brought it up on for a couple of people your name comes up when I speak to other friends your name comes up so I hope that people that don’t know Michael Hatton will know do you want

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people to call you if you do you want to still have a practice actively asking I’m I’m on leap right now okay and so I generally I’m happy to refer to people so if they if you like what you hear today of course how could you not Michael guy and want to call him you offer one offer your phone number you’re welcome to okay I’m on my cell phone which is what I use is three eight five zero three eight three three eight five zero three eight three area 808 H owd en Michael how’d you know I I have

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seen to be sitting with us what to call man osteo osteopath osteopath oh you’re in your share your office with oh yeah Jackson Jackson and Jackson’s unbelievable so you’re there at the hospital so this is what does he do he helps people he does osteopathic manipulation which is kind of a lost art I think although it it’s coming back but you know he’ll put his hands on your head or your shoulders and he’ll be able to read what’s happening in the body and he works the whole body now he’s not he

31:34

doesn’t claim himself to be a energetic what is he he’s an osteopath an author is the real osteopathic physician and he puts your hand his hands on your body and has some kind of ability to be he can just steal it’s like cranial-sacral work where you feel in craniosacral where you you feel like really a pulse moving up the spine into the great lanes II and and he can read the whole body and I found his work to be marvelous and everyone that I’ve spoken to who’s received treatment from him it’s very

32:14

high the the the difficult thing with Jackson is getting an appointment because he’s just completely overbooked I found um but his work is just marvelous I’m I’m in awe of what he does and so is what you do it seems like a natural marriage with what he’s doing right oh yeah we we get on quite well and trade treatments and I see yeah I mean yeah I’m only sorry there aren’t like dozens of jocks and Friedman’s well Jackson Freedman we’re gonna we will see if we can get an appointment that you

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know I think that what you’re saying to me make sure you remember that I feel I’ve been feeling my mortality I’m hoping to be here many years but it’s time the great people like Jackson Freedman great people like Michael Hammond we need to not only look at them as practitioners or to help us in our healing but also to help us train there’s so many people that could learn does he have interns with him at all well actually he’s off in Florida this week teaching some kind of thing real

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good you know no his he’s very dedicated to the art because I really I think the greatest gift that we can all give is our perspective on life that’s I find I have found that many of the younger people it’s not that they don’t have depth they’ve never really been encouraged to explore that way they have great breath they look at something on the net and they have lots of knowledge and surface knowledge but there’s a different kind of a learning experience different kind of interactions they have

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with each other and I noticed the difference as an older person well you know a friend of mine a Sufi teacher kind of an irreverent I worked with the Grateful Dead a lot he said the reason American men are such bad lovers is that they’ve always they were raised on 45 rpm records so their span of a tenth tension is only three three and a half minutes you know and I you know that was meant to be a reverent but you know I think I watched this generation where you’re so consumed by gadgetry and of

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course EMFs have their own effect on ya big lecture electronic frequencies so you know my prayers is you know for the healing of the earth and for the future of humanity but you know it’s it’s in play exactly and it’s what do we say it’s out of our control we do our part to maybe minimize the speed of this but I know it’s this is some design greater than us this techno age which is now freeing up our hands and feet and brains to be doing other things it would be nice to see other things actually

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happening somehow I’m feeling there’s a that it’s almost like watching a movie where there’s a set but behind the set isn’t the real building that’s just the front of the building that’s what I somehow get that the younger people aren’t really having a chance to put in roots and do some deeper things because technology is making it easy for them and so some of those basic skills someone told me they don’t teach how to do cursive writing in school anymore most people print yeah that’s our unless

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she doesn’t play yeah so that’s like that was a bit shocking you sound you is that right really oh yeah people are not my son is a whiz with his keyboard and his printing is legible yeah yeah so he doesn’t have much use of his signature now he has a big digital signature right yeah he has actually his his real signature for the checks and things like that if he ever writes one since it’s very stylized it’s on you know I mean it’s better than most physicians but still that’s a funny life I don’t know

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why doctors have gotten that reputation do you or cuz they have to just have to fill out all the stuff all the time they’re so busy so they just scribble no scribbling some words like in Chinese medicine your calligraphy is seen as reflective of your your moral stature your peril so you see someone there cleaver face not so good you you careful that’s very funny you know when I think of the world now and you know as I’m sitting I could see I’m guilty I often subset traditional medicine when

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I really mean conventional medicine so that’s an important thing I hope our audience appreciates that difference traditional meaning by tradition by experience and practice when do you see any proofs around does that ever get into the lingo of what you’re doing did you measure change in any quantifiable way for people that are looking for that well unfortunately I have the MDS to rely on and they’re they’re nurses who will chart a person’s progress and and probably give credit to themselves but

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that’s that’s fine I mean you know for me the credit really belongs to person you know and their ability to change well I’m I’m hoping our audience is hearing that acupuncture isn’t only when you need to go see a doctor oh no you know acupuncture is because you need to go see an acupuncturist who has a view on the world that is likely more holistic than I was gonna say traditionally then conventional medicine and its direction so you might learn to expand the way you then will view

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yourself and your own healing so that alone it like you say without doing anything occupy your needles as though an acupuncture is only a small portion of a Chinese medicine philosophy in action so that’s very powerful to understand when you go to see and occupy first and why to go see it occupy church yeah it may be delightfully surprising what the effects are you know that perhaps you rest better or you’re less cantankerous you know the whole thing that if you’re open enough and the

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practitioner is somewhat accomplished I mean that that’s the thing I mean just because you have a license in occupy sure that you’re up at the or whatever doesn’t mean you’re going to be useful to that person sometimes people will come in they’ll say this is what I need or this is what I want you know as if you’re a grocery store and so sometimes I have a feeling I say well perhaps you should go see this person or that person there but they’re there better than not they’ll be better than I am for you

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which is probably true well you know it’s interesting I’ve I’ve experienced here on Maui a couple of different occup actors over time and you know my own personal experience is only through for example where my ex-wife was going for a treatment about something and when she walked in she found that this occupy jurist Aaron you know Aaron Goldstein mm-hmm yeah had a very holistic approach and just like you you know doesn’t put a label on specific action to a result he involves the

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patient and that that is really such a healthy attitude I wonder I wonder if conventional doctors they talked about it but I wonder if they spend any time with it in this way I I think if you do I mean certainly Charl Friedman does he’s not a typical and not the I think Jocelyn Chang I mean just in my own experience I see um so you know that I see a few people who really they look at you as a person as a human being right not just that patient ID I mean years ago I used to date Paula Harris and Joe

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Harrison’s daughter and Joe was part of Maui Medical Group I said and I got to know them over you know six or seven years and I said how long do you have with your patients she said by the time my I pick up the clipboard on the door and the time I leave the office I think it was like five to eight minutes well I think it’s so very difficult five-date venison no but you know allergy work you know they’re very it’s a lot to look at in those days oh yeah no have you found that technology has

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helped you in some of that discovery or do you still find that manual has different kind of aspects that you prefer oh there’s nothing like the taste of the person directly sometimes like all palpate and I’ll feel different things in the body but it’s like that dr. ball you know it’s like you get it you get a taste of who the person is when they come into the office sometimes the phone call you know just how they approach you and then that will that will change over time maybe even in

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just the one treatment that all of a sudden you see a new person or they open to you and they trust you a little bit more and they open to you in ways they haven’t opened before well we’re here again with Michael how Dena coupon cures from upcountry Maui I am as I’m listening to you I’m thinking well many of our audience who’s never had a chance to spend more than five 10 minutes with the doctor we’re spending some quality time I’m thinking that this kind of delivery year you’re sharing with me is

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kind of the the meat of your practice like you say it’s the it is the discovery through sensing the person that then you do a treatment based I and a physical treatment but this whole thing is a treatment where as a doctor spending time with you he’s in the room with you and he’s got to do it at all his discovery and his delivery in eight minutes or less well now you know I I noticed now some doctors will take longer you know 15 20 minutes we have a shortage I’m sure of note of doctors

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these days oh boy how about acupuncture is shortage of occupied jurors no I don’t think so no I mean my friends in California complained that there’s an occupying force on every street corner Oh which made me true you know I mean I I spent time in San Francisco in the Mission District and just walking the Mission District you know up in the you know above the Mexican restaurants there might be ten occupied shirts no kidding you know I mean it no they’re everywhere you know but here on Maui but I’m hoping

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that our audience is recognizing acupuncture in a different way than you know I often hear about if someone’s in pain they say go to see an acupuncturist that’s where you’re gonna get relief from pain if you can’t ingest pain medication people that are on restricted medication that are in pain I imagine you you had success in helping people relieve pain can you do things for general ache well it depends what is you know and how deep-seated it is in the person sometimes how you live

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condemns you to different things I mean people are under such pressures you know it’s a challenge like these days to find peace to just be at ease and even to trust your partner sometimes you know because there is there’s so much input all the time going on and different challenges so so that to me speaks buckets for occupy sure and for the kind of treatment that might happen through occupant you and I I’m thinking of it more I think of it in a more general way like if someone might go to in

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conventional medicine they have specialties and all those specialties somehow come together I guess somehow maybe they come together on a chart but there’s not a lot of again I don’t know that but it doesn’t seem to be a lot of collaboration between practitioners I know at Kaiser I’ve been told by doctors they actually have time where they do review cases together and put things up between different doctors to try to come up with a more holistic look I was happy to hear that but I hear it as a

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different kind of a way though you know separate out in conventional medicine maybe because financially it makes more sense they have separate pockets excuse me you know I’m mostly around cheapies you know dr. Swoboda and dr. polio know up at Kula Hospital who are both very compassionate caring deep physicians and and I also one the reasons I’ve stayed at Kula hospitals I like the atmosphere it’s really a community hospital I mean even even though it’s presently run by tosser you know the Kaiser people seem amenable

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to the way we’ve been working for years and and were trusted by the community yeah you know when when Kari Miller was the medical director up there it was really her ministry good Catholic girl you know and and she really saw them the model of the Prophet Jesus you know house as her model and she’d be available day and night you know to help people and she’s the one who brought me in in the very beginning for which I was really thankful she at one point said oh yeah she said you’re the first you know

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complementary practitioner to have hospital privileges in Hawaii you know to actually be working at out of hospital I wasn’t part of you know I wasn’t employed by them but I was there cast well I I noted it like I said as I go to cooler hospital to visit friends I’m happy to see that you’re there I mean it was really to me I thought wow this is really a good model a blending of what you call it complementary medicines yes so it’s conventional and complementary versus traditional and Western can I

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call it Western medicine well you know it’s Western to a degree I mean of course when the alop house came to power they suppress the homeopaths I mean that’s historically known the people know what the differences an allopathic someone who practices medicine with what um well largely pharmaceuticals are surgical intervention or chemo and you know but tremendous reliance on pharmaceuticals and homeopathy is on they take a very very small well I don’t know what’s really called a witness of a

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particular element and then you take different levels of dosage basically a sugar-coated pill and that can have profound effects so that’s interesting so so – I look at that is allopathic is heavy pharmaceutical base case conventional Western medicine all those good descriptions and oh I forgot already oh no I’m a pal think white what is the other C word Oh complement cause look at this thoroughly and it’s Monday oh it’s good no but in complementary medicine it’s a totally different approach where a small

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amount can make a profound difference that’s that reminded me of what I was sharing with you privately about hho hydrogen mm-hmm that someone realizing that this hydrogen is so small it is one on the Periodic Chart and it’s selective antioxidant it’s not just an anti it knows whether to combine or not based on processes going on in your body there’s we’ve you heard me talk about this HHO machine the ultra one you’ll hear me talk on another show but here’s another example the honoring of the

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micro the the small unit that can get everywhere to heal that that’s so profound of a difference and when I’m given medication I said maybe I don’t know if you’d be the one they asked about this but I went to the doctor and he said well you know they keep recording your blood pressure is high and I said well he has told me I’m supposed to take two of these a day and two of these a day and three of these a day and I keep thinking that this medicine is in my system maybe I should

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take one of these a day and one of these a day and you said oh yeah that’s the reason that your your your blood pressure is still high I would like to think that I could find through complementary medicine alternatives to these pharmaceutical model answers any way to do that as a civilian I know coming from kind of the practitioners like yourself is one way anyway all right I think I would just experiment I would go to you know I would look at the field of practitioners and go to one person see how that went

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try another if that didn’t work you know and then really look at it but really look at your own life you know what the pressures are in your life but how does someone for example welcome go to the beach so here let’s say I take a tour of the statin by example yes and I know that I’ve heard from you and many others hey statins are bad for you so I was like okay I’m using conventional medicine but I know it’s bad for me so instead of taking two I’ll take one so here I’m taking one I still have a

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high blood pressure reading and they’re all still worried about me so they’re thinking this doesn’t eat work well and then now they want to give me more or more medication it’s like how do you mix these modalities I don’t know you know the that’s one thing Papa said it was so don’t don’t mix the medicines so I should take what they say I’ll give it you give it a try and you see if it works and if it’s not working then perhaps it’s worthwhile I mean are you

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living in Kihei an hour I’m living in Kowloon Kailua yeah but there are so many practitioners around on Maui I mean they now have our Vedic practitioners here you know Jojo Friedman’s work is remarkable if the UM Jocelyn Chang does good work you know I mean there’s just people I know personally I’m not so what I but I also noticed that what you say I really appreciate the difference when someone goes to a Western doctor they’re going and they’re looking for a result the healing result like you say

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sometimes people come on with their laundry list of with it they’ve got going on and you have to then sort of like put that into a different model a holistic model looking at the whole person so what I know I don’t know you know I know that in the oils business the witch is fine they say well if you have this you should take this but I’ve never seen any pharmaceutical equivalent claimed other anyth such manuals or guides to that to understand the equivalents from pharmaceuticals to natural solutions well you know there

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are somewhere a little bit for the new book you know there are some herbs that are really good for cholesterol you know and that’s been documented especially crataegus the red Hawthorn the berry I mean interestingly in in America they mostly use the leaf but in China they use the Pina Pina which is an the fruit and in fact they even have candies out of the fruit so delicious but but about along with other herbs jobs Cheers and different mints and things like that helps clear the cholesterol from the body

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realizing that an hour is gone in that amazing wonderful yeah I guess we’re gonna have to have Michael Howden back on the show I’m sure you’ve been a wonderful guest I’m sorry to cut this kind of short what would you like to impart to our guests before we leave what’s important that you want I think the important thing trust yourself you know don’t be bullied by other people no matter what their licenses you know you have to my old friend Jill Miller used to see three things you need in life

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common sense a sense of humor and more common sense double up on common sense thank you Michael I’m so happy to have you here we are out of time that just is so quick we are the neutral zone here every Monday at 11:00 you can look at our website Maui neutral zone calm you’ll see our show again and all of our shows and I hope you’ll visit us here on Monday and any day it’s a pleasure delivering to you we love you thank you for joining us although I have a wonderful you you