Dry-Dry-Dry-What to do-WHAT TO DO?

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Jason Schwartz with Water Expert ROBIN KNOX-WATER PROBLEMS-2025- Dry-dry-dry-what to do? With all the change in weather and dry conditions and unpredictability, what are we to do? Robin AND Jason have ideas!

Summary & Transcript

[00:19 → 07:46]
Introduction and Context: Political and Environmental Background of Maui’s Water Issues

• The conversation begins with an introduction of Robin Knox, also known as Sea Lily, highlighting her multifaceted identity as a mom, performer, spiritual person, and politician.
• Robin’s background includes participation in spiritual dance and prayer ceremonies, showing a deep connection to Maui’s cultural and environmental heritage before entering politics.
• The host expresses concerns about Maui’s worsening environmental conditions, especially drought and water scarcity, noting the stark brown landscape visible from Kahului to Kihei, contrasting with thriving kiawe trees.
• The discussion turns toward water management issues: water runs off the land, causing erosion and damage, but is not effectively captured or conserved.
• Problems with land swaps and development are highlighted, such as one that altered the natural water flow, causing water to bypass natural channels and flood developed areas, showing a lack of systematic thinking in water management.
• Robin emphasizes the need to view water as a single interconnected global system affected by climate change and human actions worldwide. She stresses humility and caution in altering water systems, emphasizing the complex, interconnected nature of ecological and hydrological systems.
• A key insight is that water systems must be managed as whole systems, respecting natural flows and impacts, rather than fragmented, short-sighted interventions.
• [07:46 → 16:38]
  Water Storage Challenges and Conservation Realities
• Robin describes the lack of adequate water storage in Maui: reservoirs lose water to porous volcanic soils, aquifers are the best natural storage but are over-pumped, and tanks are expensive.
• She critiques the current infrastructure as outdated and inadequate to capture and store water efficiently.
• Discussion of new water technologies, such as extracting water from air (atmospheric water generation), is introduced as a complementary but limited solution dependent on climate conditions.
• Robin underscores the importance of restoring natural water-capturing ecosystems, especially forests and mountains which pull water from the air and maintain rainfall cycles.
• Over-pumping wells is causing salination of aquifers, particularly in areas like Nā Vaiha and West Maui, which threatens long-term water security.
• The conversation highlights wasteful water use, especially by non-owner-occupied homes, luxury lawns, and short-term rentals, which disproportionately consume large amounts of water.
• A recent report shows that a small percentage of high water users in Lahaina could reduce consumption, saving 1.7 million gallons per day in West Maui. This suggests that better water allocation and usage enforcement could significantly improve water availability.
• Robin stresses that water conservation discussions often overlook the question “how do we make water?” and advocates for embracing nature-based solutionsover purely technological fixes.
• [16:38 → 26:25]
  Nature-Based Solutions and Community-Centered Water Management
• Robin advocates restoring wetlands for flood control, sediment capture, and habitat, describing these as “new old ways” of managing water aligned with natural cycles.
• She explains how multiple water retention strategies could be combined, such as underground cisterns, wetlands, and parks designed to hold floodwaters and sediment temporarily to prevent urban flooding.
• The conversation highlights the ahupua‘a system — the traditional Hawaiian land and water management unit from mountain to reef — as a valuable framework for integrated resource management.
• Robin laments the current Western mindset that favors large man-made infrastructure, which often causes more problems (e.g., transportation infrastructure disrupting water quality and flow).
• She calls for community collaboration, integrating knowledge from indigenous, scientific, historical, and practical perspectives to optimize resource use by ahupua‘a.
• The goal is to shift from fragmented, capitalistic exploitation toward holistic, communal stewardshipthat respects natural systems and maximizes benefits for people and environment alike.
• [26:25 → 38:14]
  Water Usage Patterns, Housing, and Environmental Impact
• Robin discusses the relationship between housing types, ownership status, and water use: non-owner-occupied and short-term rental properties tend to waste more water.
• She critiques current development trends that prioritize tourism and speculative housing over sustainable water use and affordable housing for residents.
• The example of a green lawn replacing a previously sustainable xeriscaped property illustrates misplaced cultural and environmental values leading to increased water use.
• Robin stresses that water and housing policies should be aligned to optimize resource use, not just maximize profit or tourism.
• She highlights the importance of restoring native ecosystems to improve water availability, citing successful restoration projects that caused springs to reappear and groundwater levels to rise.
• These efforts are often volunteer-driven and face challenges from landowners who hold land for speculative development rather than ecological benefit.
• The value system needs to shift to prioritize land stewardship for water retention and flood control over short-term financial gain.
• [38:14 → 47:46]
  Environmental Groups, Funding Challenges, and Land Management
• Environmental groups face funding shortages and increased competition, relying heavily on volunteerism and community support to continue restoration work.
• Land ownership is a major barrier to making progress; many landowners purchased property speculatively, anticipating development profits, resisting conservation efforts.
• County government has taken steps, such as appointing its first land manager, but structural challenges remain, including fragmented governance and lack of coordinated land and water management.
• Robin urges a rethinking of values at the government and community level to align policies with environmental and climate crises, integrating emergency housing and alternative housing solutions with natural resource management.
• She emphasizes that housing solutions must be flexible, affordable, and environmentally responsible, including cluster housing and experimental housing models that were previously dismissed but could address current crises.
• The conversation includes critiques of current housing policies that exacerbate homelessness, housing shortages, and environmental degradation.
• [47:46 → 52:09]
  Political Engagement and Community Action
• Robin encourages community members to engage actively in local government decisions, especially upcoming county council elections for the vacant seat of Tasha Kama.
• She names the three candidates running and urges the public to research them carefully to elect representatives who prioritize community values over money, and who support nature-based solutions.
• Robin emphasizes that local government listens when people show up and advocate, and that public involvement is crucial to shift policies toward sustainability and equity.
• [52:09 → 53:34]
  Closing Remarks and Call for Unity
• The host thanks Robin for sharing her knowledge so freely despite personal challenges, acknowledging her deliberate passion and calm approach.
• Robin affirms the power of collective effort, stating that working together is essential to solving Maui’s environmental and social crises.
• The conversation ends on a hopeful note emphasizing holistic unity and community collaboration as the path forward.

Key Insights and Conclusions

• Maui’s water crisis is a complex systemic issue, rooted in historical land use changes, inadequate infrastructure, over-pumping of aquifers, and climate change impacts.
• Water must be managed as an interconnected system, respecting natural cycles and acknowledging global environmental interdependencies.
• Nature-based solutions, such as wetland restoration, forest protection, and aquifer recharge, are essential and complement technological approaches like atmospheric water generation.
• Water waste, especially from non-owner-occupied homes and short-term rentals, is a significant factorthat can be addressed through policy and enforcement to save millions of gallons daily.
• Housing and water policies are deeply intertwined, with speculative development and tourism-driven housing exacerbating resource scarcity and social inequities.
• Community engagement, traditional Hawaiian land management (ahupua‘a), and multi-disciplinary collaboration are key to optimizing resource use and addressing challenges.
• Government action is necessary but insufficient alone; public participation and shifts in societal values are critical to prioritize environmental stewardship over profit.
• Emergency housing solutions and flexible, affordable housing models must be integrated with environmental sustainability to address ongoing crises in Maui.

Timeline of Key Topics Covered

Timestamp	Topic Summary	Key Points
00:19-07:46	Introduction, water system issues, global context	Water cycle as interconnected system; problems with land swaps and development altering water flows
07:46-16:38	Water storage challenges and conservation	Lack of reservoirs; aquifer overpumping; water waste by non-residents; emerging technologies discussed
16:38-26:25	Nature-based solutions and ahupua‘a system	Wetland restoration; community collaboration; traditional land management as model
26:25-38:14	Water use patterns, housing impact	Non-owner-occupied homes waste more water; short-term rentals increase demand; ecosystem restoration benefits
38:14-47:46	Environmental groups, funding, land management	Funding shortages; landowner speculation; need for government coordination and value shift
47:46-52:09	Political engagement and upcoming elections	Importance of voting for candidates aligned with community and environmental values
52:09-53:34	Closing remarks and community unity	Call for collective effort and sustainable collaboration

Definitions and Concepts

Term	Definition/Explanation
Ahupua‘a	Traditional Hawaiian land division system from mountain to reef integrating resources and community management
Nature-Based Solutions	Environmental practices that work with natural processes to address issues like flooding, water retention, and habitat restoration
Aquifer	Underground layer of water-bearing rock that stores groundwater
Atmospheric Water Generation	Technology that extracts water from humidity in the air, dependent on climate conditions
Cluster Housing	Housing design where multiple small units share communal facilities, allowing more efficient land use and affordability

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Q: Why is Maui facing such severe water shortages?
A: Due to climate change-induced drought, over-pumping of aquifers causing salination, inadequate water storage infrastructure, and land development disrupting natural water flows.

Q: What are “nature-based solutions”?
A: Methods that restore or mimic natural ecosystems like wetlands and forests to manage water, sediment, and habitat, providing sustainable flood control and water retention.

Q: How can water waste be reduced effectively?
A: By enforcing water restrictions, targeting high water users (particularly short-term rentals and non-owner-occupied homes), and promoting efficient landscaping and irrigation.

Q: Is technology a solution to water scarcity?
A: Technology such as water-from-air systems can help but must be combined with nature-based solutions and conservation for sustainable water management.

Q: How does housing policy affect water resources?
A: Speculative and tourism-driven housing increases water demand disproportionately, often at the expense of residents and environmental sustainability.

Q: What role does community engagement play?
A: Essential for influencing government policy, restoring traditional land management practices, and collaboratively optimizing resource use.

This summary captures the core content, insights, and factual details provided in the transcript without adding unsupported information.

Jason and Robin discussed water management challenges in Maui, exploring various solutions including sustainable practices, natural systems, and infrastructure improvements. They examined the connection between housing, land use, and water resources, highlighting the need for emergency housing solutions and policy changes to address the housing crisis. The conversation concluded with discussions about environmental conservation efforts, community involvement, and the importance of protecting natural systems like wetlands while promoting sustainable land management practices.

ANOTHER Summary

Maui Water Solutions Discussion

Jason and Robin discussed water issues on Maui, with Jason expressing concern about the island’s drying conditions and the need for sustainable water solutions. Robin shared her expertise on the holistic approach to water management and its connection to housing. They also touched on recent political developments, including a land swap proposal involving a council member. The conversation served as a prelude to a planned show, with Jason expressing admiration for Robin’s background in dance and prayer, as well as her political aspirations.

Water Management and Infrastructure Challenges

Jason and Robin discussed the challenges of water management and infrastructure, particularly focusing on the impact of land swaps and development on water flow. Robin emphasized the interconnectedness of global water systems and the importance of systematic thinking when making changes to natural waterways. They also touched on the need for more water storage options, such as reservoirs and aquifers, to better manage rainfall and prevent flooding.

Water Conservation Strategies in Maui

Robin and Jason discussed water conservation in West Maui, highlighting that non-owner occupied households use more water than owner-occupied ones. They explored the potential of using atmospheric water generation technology to address water scarcity, while emphasizing the importance of natural solutions like forest restoration to enhance water resources. The conversation also touched on the issue of over-pumping wells, leading to salination of aquifers, and the need to prioritize sustainable water use practices.

Harmonizing Humans with Natural Systems

Robin and Jason discussed the importance of aligning human technologies with natural planetary systems to optimize water and land management. They emphasized the need to capture and restore natural water systems, such as wetlands, and to design nature-based solutions that work in harmony with these systems. Jason suggested using underground cisterns and settling basins in parks to manage floodwater and sediment, while Robin highlighted the importance of community involvement and a holistic approach to managing resources within an ahupua’a system. They agreed that a Western mindset of relying on large, man-made systems has often created problems, and instead, a more integrated approach with natural systems would be beneficial.

Sustainable Water Use Strategies

Jason and Robin discussed the need to move beyond temporary fixes, or “band-aids,” to address long-term sustainability issues, particularly in water usage. Robin shared an example of a property that transitioned from a sustainable landscape to a water-intensive lawn, highlighting the broader implications of such changes on community resources. They explored the relationship between housing, short-term rentals, and water use, suggesting that current practices may not be optimizing resources effectively. Jason inquired about studies on generational awareness of resource constraints, noting the potential for young people to drive change in climate action.

Emergency Housing Solutions Discussion

Jason and Robin discussed the housing crisis, emphasizing the urgent need for emergency housing solutions and the importance of relaxing certain housing codes temporarily. They explored alternative housing models, such as cluster housing and shared living spaces, and highlighted the need for policy changes to address the growing number of houseless individuals. Jason expressed concern about the rising violence against houseless people and the lack of adequate housing options, while Robin suggested reviewing zoning and housing codes to allow for more flexible housing solutions.

Wetlands Protection and Restoration

Robin discussed the importance of protecting and optimizing the use of wetlands in Kihei, highlighting their role in managing flooding, sediment retention, and habitat conservation. He explained that these wetlands, which are often unrecognized, are crucial for cooling the area and supporting various ecological benefits. Robin also mentioned ongoing restoration efforts and the appearance of new springs after restoration work, emphasizing the potential for similar improvements in other areas.

Environmental Conservation and Community Involvement

Robin and Jason discussed the importance of hands-on work and volunteerism in environmental conservation, noting that while funding for groups like Hale Ma’olu may be reduced, the need for community involvement and collaboration remains strong. They highlighted how landowners’ perspectives on land value are shifting, with an increasing recognition of environmental benefits over development potential.

Land Management and Housing Solutions

Robin and Jason discussed the need for land management and affordable housing solutions, highlighting the county’s recent appointment of a land manager as a positive step. They emphasized the importance of valuing people and nature over profit, criticising the current housing market and government policies. Robin encouraged community involvement in the upcoming council election to promote more sustainable and community-oriented values.

 

 

Transcript

00:19

Aloha, everyone. We are here at the Neutral Zone. It is Monday. Wait a minute. No, it’s Thursday, November 14th. But we have a show. And so this is a recorded show. Yes. Robin Knox is my guest, as you can see. Robin Knox, you may know. Some of you know her as Sea Lily.

00:48

She has a, I want to say a spiritual and a whole different side of a beautiful, great mom. She’s a mom and she’s a, you know, probably as Robin Knox, the politician. But I know her as someone when I first heard of her and met her, she was doing dancing and prayer with Prema and My Lady Ariel and other beautiful ladies.

01:17

honoring and doing a whole special thing. And I’ve been around watching, you know, when Tai Situ Rinpoche came here and I’m video, I get great experiences through my partner. And through those experiences, we see each other in different light. I saw you performing and it’s more than performing because it’s a prayer, but they were doing it there at Kihei at the Veterans Center and such way before I thought about politics, but

01:47

To know that someone has had a life and background before Maui that’s been so rich, then came here and put yourself on the chopping block. Being a candidate takes a lot of guts because people look at you in ways that aren’t even related or fair. You know, I ran so long ago. I’m still labeled as that green guy by some, and others call me right. What the heck? I think of you that way. You know, we’re

02:17

We’re all veterans of this game, watching this island drying up. I drive, you know, how did I think about you for the show? I drive from Kahului, where I live, to Kihei to see Airiel,le and where those green mountains are all brown, brown, brown, every direction, except Kiawe. They have figured out how to do it, and they are just thriving. But truthfully, like, you see all the things going on, and

02:47

There are all kinds of issues on Maui, but because you’re a water expert, I’d like to let you go and kind of guide where we’re going to talk about. I have a few questions along the way, but it’s all brown. We have water and it’s going to grow things and it’s going to

03:07

you’ll help me understand. And we see that you don’t know how to get water in a channel and save it. What’s going on? And it runs down the hill and destroys things. What’s going on here? Why do we have these problems? And what are we going to do about it? We’ve seen land swaps. You know, I’ll give you one. Tom Cook, you remember him? You ran against him, didn’t you? Yesterday, was it yesterday, day before yesterday, Paul? Maybe it was yesterday.

03:36

Paul DesLauriers and the group Maui Pono Network and lots of groups talking about one of our council people, Tom Cook, and he gets 90-something thousand as a council person and 270,000, something like that. Isn’t that like triple, nine times three? And they’re not considering it something important enough to take further and investigate further. I didn’t hear any more details than that, I thought.

04:06

Who are these people? Who’s making these decisions? So as you go, realize I’m a big loud mouth and I talk way outside and I don’t want anyone listening to think that you are advising me or that this is any way political because you are who you are and I just have a lot of steam over what I keep seeing getting worse and worse and I know

04:35

I saw about the land swap when I got involved in real estate where the water coming down the hill in Kia has to learn to make a right and a left because someone did a land swap and the thing doesn’t go all the way to the water. That was by design by a land swap. And now they have condos there. What do you do now? So, I mean, we tend to, I think when it comes to water, there’s a lot of magical thinking.

05:02

And there’s a lot of nonsensical thinking. And what’s missing in my book is systematic thinking. And thinking about the water, if you give a moment of contemplation, start with the concept of oneness. And the recognition that there is really only one water system

05:32

one water cycle on this whole planet. And it is affected by everyone on the planet. And it affects everyone on the planet. And so us here in the United States burning all of our fossil fuels can trigger things like melting ice caps and sea level rise that can flood people and

05:58

low-lying nations and island states somewhere else in the world. It can cause weather patterns to shift, cause people to lose the rainfall that they need for growing food or to have too much rainfall and not be able to grow food. So the whole balance of water systems and everything that they support, like ecological systems and all life on the planet,

06:28

it’s all about balance it’s all about a whole planet literally full of systems within systems within systems that are all interconnected and so anytime we go about making changes as humans you know we need to not be arrogant we need to have a little bit of hubris and and and we need to realize that um

06:56

that we don’t know everything. In fact, we know very little. So we need to exercise caution when we’re going to change the water system, whether we’re talking natural or manmade. It needs thought. What is it connected to? What does it impact? What will be impacted by these changes? So some of the ones you described, you know, when you build

07:20

condominiums and the flow path of a gulch the water that’s on its way to the ocean uh you know if it’s a small amount of water it may stay in that new channel that you dug to take it around the condos but if it’s a lot of water it just will go over the banks and through the parking lots and into people’s condos uh you know water seeks the lowest levels so

07:46

A lot of times we need to think like water. Why didn’t we save it or still divert it, store it? Hannibal Tavares and Ariel and I spoke in like 1995 about storage. We were jealous of Molokai. That’s 30 years ago. What’s the deal? Help me with that. Well, we don’t have a lot of storage. That is a good point.

08:15

If we had more reservoirs, then maybe we could capture more of the water up the hill and hold it. But our water infrastructure is behind in a lot of ways. You can store water in a lot of ways. You can have reservoirs, which would be like a hole in the ground. And it’s better if it’s lined or you’re going to lose it to the volcanic soils. You can store it in your aquifer, which is, in my book, the best place. Let the water…

08:44

be in its natural system, which is that it would rain and water would go into the groundwater. It’s stored in the aquifer, in the rock formations. But as humans, we dig wells into that and we pump water out of that. So we disturb the system in that way. It can also be stored in tanks, which is probably the most expensive way to store it.

09:11

But storage would be part of, well, yeah, swimming pool is a storage in a way. So when they, for example, outlaw, right? Outlaw pools on the west side of Maui, isn’t that a new rule? So I think about water that we can get from the air. What would happen if we were self-sufficient? First of all, these are two separate issues because I keep hearing them talk about

09:39

We have to conserve water as people, and we watch them doing foolish, foolish things for decades. Stop me. Did you see that report, Jason, that just came out yesterday about West Maui? It was very interesting in that in Lahaina, the households that use the most water are non-owner-occupied.

10:08

And they use a lot more water than the owner occupied. And a significant part of the residents in Lahaina use less than the average assumed by the Department of Water Supply. They use 500 gallons per day. And the assumption is you would use 600. And then there are many more. I think it was 75% use 1,000 gallons or less.

10:37

But then there’s a small percent that uses a lot more. And if that if those 35, whatever percent it is, the smaller percent, if they would use a thousand gallons per day or less, like everyone else is, we could save one point seven million gallons per day in West Mali. And so that’s just asking a few people who are excessively using water.

11:06

to dial it back and be in the same you know range that their neighbors are and that the rest of the residents of the island are and that’s for sure that’s yeah that’s particularly important there in lahaina because right now there is an affordable housing development that has been told you can’t build because there’s no water available for you well that’s why i talk about water from the air and also

11:35

it does seem that that problem is easily capped by this is your allocation of water for the day right and cut it off if you’re especially right what it shows you is that um there is enough water just some people are using more than their share but when it comes to the water resource and you know this is one of the things that kind of amuses me too our water resource discussions

12:05

revolve around how we use water. And we never talk about how do we make water. And you’re talking about a technology that can extract water from air. And in certain places… It’s so amazing because people that are in remote areas all sort of chuckle when we speak to them. Why? Why?

12:32

Because getting water from the air is not new. Now technology has made it. It only works in certain conditions, right? It’s a natural process and you have to have that balanced conditions to make water condense. That’s what that is. You’re condensing water out of the air. You like to tell me today that water in the desert. I know that we have

13:01

I only bring it up to say that those that are inclined and have, what about putting it in a 30-year mortgage where it makes sense to put a $40,000 system for a house that’s like nothing, like a solar system? Well, you know, that may be part of the solution, but the bigger solution, the bigger water machine is the mountain. It is the mountain. It is the forest. Oh, yeah.

13:28

And that is what it’s doing. It’s pulling water out of the air. And so when we’re talking all of this, you know, conserve water, capture water, you know, all of that, we need to give equal weight or perhaps more weight even to restoring our forests and our natural systems that attract the rain, that help pull the water out of the air.

13:55

So that we have more resource to start with. And then… Yeah, and then use our natural resources, our natural aquifers. Don’t over pump the wells. Don’t pump the wells until you’re pulling the salt water in. You know, right now, I’ll…

14:15

Every area that we’re pumping wells out in Nā Vaiha at Eao and in West Maui, we’re starting to salinate our aquifer because we’re over pumping the wells. And that doesn’t make any sense. What are we doing with that water? We’re irrigating grass, lawns on luxury homes. Why is it that… Water wasting by non-owner occupied homes. It’s like, why…

14:42

Why are we squandering it? Why are we not paying attention to where it comes from? Why are we not caring for the natural systems? I think too often people want a technology fix and they ignore the most ancient technology of all, the technology of nature, the way that nature does it. And so that’s actually the latest term of art in the water technology world is nature-based solutions.

15:13

So for instance, for the flooding, the nature-based solution is a wetland because that’s what used to hold the sediment, all the mud and the water before we built condos in them. You know, so it’s really the new old ways. You know, we have to do it now, the new old ways. And that is to really understand how this planet works and align our technologies with the planetary technologies. And so…

15:43

I don’t know what those kinds of things cost. I know that somewhere they should start catching water, and not in a decade. They’re just going to set it up. Look, we had a little bit of rain. How much of that rain did we harvest? I think of it that way. Just like these big fields, when we talk about taking green waste,

16:09

and putting carbon back in the soil and regenerate, you know, all that stuff. This is another really important technology that I think we should, we should use. You know, we don’t, everyone says, well, like Israel does desalination. We could do that. Costs are high. We could, there are ways to make that all, all that cost be converted to things that we have abundance of. So all kinds of things could happen, but, uh,

16:38

The practicality is, and the one that really hits the heart is to that what you said, which is all of us have to recognize we have to take care of the land here, let it feed us, and these natural systems that forever and ever were honored here, right? And things before they didn’t do what I want to say. They didn’t conform to it. It had to conform to them.

17:06

We’re putting our footprint in and we’re splashing in the mud. Well, I think it’s, you know, think about like optimization. We want to optimize what we have right now. We have to start where we are now. That’s where we are, right? So we have to start there. Where do we go? If we were sitting, what would you do?

17:31

Well, I would look at where can we capture water, but I would also look at where can we restore the systems, the natural systems that capture water, that capture sediment, that hold water, that hold soils on the land.

17:49

restore those and design nature-based systems that work with those. So you may not have a 100% natural system. Let’s say there’s so much flood water coming down that your wetland couldn’t hold it all, especially because your wetlands are smaller now because you’ve built houses all around. Well, you could have an underground cistern

18:13

and collect some of the water in there, you could have ways to drop the sediment out, slow it down and drop the sediment out, collect part of it underground, have part of it in the wetland, providing habitat for birds, settling more solids. You could have your parks be settling basins that during these big, but not very frequent floods,

18:37

You know, could hold the water and sediment, and we can give up having the grassy park for a short time in order to not have houses flooded and to not have everything buried in mud, you know, so it’s it’s how can we optimize what we have the space, which is an important resource the space for handling sediment and water.

18:59

and for growing plants and for growing food, for growing plants that provide ecological function, that provide hydrological function. We haven’t really sat down and look at this as a whole system. And it’s ironic if you ask me that we’re in Hawaii,

19:20

And where the ahupua’a system, that would be the management unit, if you will, to look at, like, you know, from the top of the mountain out to the edge of the reef, what are the resources? How are they connected? Who are the people that need them? How are they used? And how can we optimize that so that we get like the most bang for our buck, you know, that’s the capitalist saying, but the most benefit.

19:50

from the management of what we have. And so it’s a community. I think it takes community. It takes people who actually know those systems, whether that’s from their intergenerational, multigenerational families having been there or because they’re a historian or a scholar or a scientist or a planner. People come to this information from all different perspectives, but if we can all understand

20:19

sit down and look at this one ahupua’a at a time and not waste things and optimize the use of things, we would be better off than we are now. We tend to have a very Western mindset of big man-made systems are somehow going to solve our problems.

20:47

when really those big man-made systems actually created a lot of our problems like transportation systems created a lot of water quality problems um you know even cut off the flow of water underground and can cause you know uh water supply problems and so it’s like you know reality check we live on a planet we live on a living planet and

21:17

modern technology man-made technology great stuff used in the proper way but you can’t pretend like the natural system doesn’t exist no i thought that was well said so the system all i was talking about is band-aids you’re here yeah dates for the things that exist now how are we going to get them out of the equation so that a local system can accommodate better and

21:44

by trying to make everything my goal. Self-sufficiency is just, that just means we’re even. I should hope that would be the minimum goal.

21:55

Well, Band-Aid solutions serve a purpose. They take care of something that’s urgent, but sometimes it’s a Band-Aid when you need a full-on emergency room. And sometimes you can’t just keep doing Band-Aids instead of addressing the sources of the problems and really doing the bigger solutions. Like you mentioned, one solution is telling people

22:23

that water restriction and use is the new way of life. And we’re gonna be having beautiful brown lawns and the green we’re gonna treat in a different way. And I’m using it as an example that we learned to moderate, like you say. Well, you know what? I have a green lawn and so does my neighbor. I water my lawn twice a week.

22:51

He waters his three times a day. And he uses a lot more water than I do. And his grass is only slightly greener than mine. And also, he doesn’t let any leaves decay on his grass. So he doesn’t have a mulching effect.

23:12

So that’s why he has to water his grass more. But if you have trees and have shade and have, you know, a moderate amount of leaf litter that decays and mulches your grass, you don’t have to water so much. And you still have a nice, beautiful lawn that you can walk on barefoot that my dog enjoys playing on. So it doesn’t.

23:35

necessarily mean we have to get rid of lawns. But it was really sad because that house that is next to me that has all that watering going on, when I first moved in, there was no watering going on because it was zero scaped. It had pohaku everywhere. It had garden beds and it had larger bushes and shrubs, bananas and other things.

24:03

and walkways and pathways. So it was a lot of hardscape with natural stone from here and they would periodically water their trees but there wasn’t this wholesale watering of a lawn going on that’s going on now. So they actually tore out what was a totally appropriate culturally and hydrologically and climate wise to that property.

24:32

And instead put in a very typical green grass lawn like you would see in the suburbs back on the continent. So, you know, it was really sad to see that, to see it go from something so sustainable to something that’s totally not sustainable. And guess what? That’s an empty house. That’s a non-owner occupied property that no one’s ever here. Yeah.

24:56

but yet it uses water every day. And so these are things that could be addressed through tax policy. There is a definite relationship we’re starting to see between

25:09

housing and how it’s used and water. We saw that too when Bill 9 was being discussed about taking some of the condos out of short-term rentals, the Minnetonka list. There was some analysis done of water use and they started noticing, hey, short-term rentals use more water than long-term rentals do.

25:38

And again, it’s, you know, so here’s something we’re doing that is decreasing our housing supply and decreasing our water supply. And yet we’re sold the bill of goods that our economic survival depends on having this industry. And it’s like, well, wait a minute, this industry…

26:00

has been pushed on us to the extent that it’s taking up all of our housing and our water and there aren’t enough for the people who actually live here. So that just doesn’t make sense. That is not optimization of our resources. That is what we need to stop doing. So it doesn’t have to be extreme. It doesn’t mean we have no short term rentals. It doesn’t mean we have no lawns.

26:25

You know, it just means we work smarter to do better with what we have and not squander it and not, you know, value it. So if we’re giving it up, if we’re using it, if we’re utilizing it, we want to make sure we’re doing it in a way that benefits our community. Have they done any studies of young to old? Are the young people going, hey, resources are running out?

26:55

We better use less. Do we get any kind of sense of that? I’ve never seen a study like that. That would be really interesting. Because maybe we’ll grow into a more aware… The ones that don’t have any water left that go, water is expensive. You know, I hope that that’s now clicking in where… I mean, it would be an interesting…

27:22

Look who’s leading the charge on climate. It’s very young people. It’s junior high and high school age kids leading the charge on climate because they are the ones that are going to inherit an unlivable planet. When we’re talking to an audience out here, who are we aiming our targets at? People like us that don’t wisely use resources

27:53

someone that plans a property, and never mind the cultural disrespect, abuses use of local resources for local people, drives prices up. That’s why I use the thing about, I sound like a broken record, water from air. You want to be able to use this place? Don’t take from the resources.

28:22

And then we’ll consider whether it’s right. And I like when earlier you were talking about the difference between it’s going to handle it now and then emergency. Why haven’t they called this an emergency to the point where they’re allowing different kinds of structures more easily? What’s your hit on that? In terms of housing? Is that what you meant? Yeah, I mean, you and I know, I know people personally

28:51

who have nowhere to live. So now they’re called houseless or homeless. And you can’t judge a book by its cover. There are rocket scientists out there now. Older people that are suddenly thinking, I thought I had senior housing. I didn’t want to see my rent go up. Someone sold my house. They tripled my rent. FEMA comes in, blows out the rental market. I need help. I call that emergency. We have a mayor that’s

29:21

It’s hard for me to have someone feel proud that they build 1,000 or 2,000 when you need 10,000. Well, here’s my observation. Whenever there’s a hurricane, a big storm, a big disaster, somehow we manage to house everyone. And the reason we’re able to is because we set aside certain rules for a short time.

29:49

And I think we could continue some form of that. I think we need to look at our housing codes closely and our zoning codes and see, are there things that we can relax without having a really terrible harmful effect that would allow more housing? I do think there’s still more housing to be had in that way by relaxing some of the rigidity.

30:18

Like, like, for instance, when I was at one point, I lived on ag land. And there was you’re only allowed to have two kitchens. And so there were two kitchens. And one was a normal house with the kitchen main house on the property. The other one was like an Ohana with a kitchen.

30:40

But in addition to that kitchen and bathrooms there, there were also like little pods, little bedrooms around the property. And so different people had their little private space. The bathrooms and the kitchen were shared at the Ohana. And so you had, instead of an Ohana housing one family, you had three or four different households who shared the resources of bathrooms and kitchens

31:11

but each had their own private space. Like, why is that not okay? You know, why the county came in and was like, oh no, you could have that if you wanted to, but all those little pods have to be connected by hallways with rooftops and walls. Well, I know a guy that 25 years ago put walkways and like, they’re really outside walkways with big,

31:40

easy covered walkways and that’s how he got his loans as one property and they all turned into conforming loan with a non-conforming use all these little things that they do here right but a lot of those cost money and that’s called the cluster housing and experimental experiential housing those are even on the books but so now yeah

32:09

Yeah, but no one’s doing anything with them. Like, what about, you know, this is not the housing show, although, because water is such an issue. What are we going to do? I mean, when I see cob houses, we can all, as groups, take the earth with the green and build responsible structures

32:35

that can stand forever but even if considered for a short time on an emergency basis can solve this initial problem and start to also change the social nature of what’s going on around here because it’s rough out there on the street right now I’ve never seen more normal people in my life that are getting beat up taken in by the police

33:04

Beaten up in the park in the middle of the day. Cars left out at night and stripped. All kinds of stuff. And I know you know some of that stuff too. Why? Because we have to change the housing. You know, how many places in the world they have to say, housing first. By the way, I’m sorry I keep looking down, but my screen just blew up again. Housing first. I’m not even sure which way I’m looking at.

33:35

You’re fine. But when I’m looking at you, it’s not like people might wonder what I’m doing. I’m looking at you. I am looking at you. I’m looking at you. So the glasses didn’t matter, you see. But I have to see what time it is. Oh, we still have time. How are you doing personally? Are you doing anything work-wise? Do you have the projects? I’ve heard of things that are going on at Kihei, and I always wonder.

34:03

Is Robin involved with that? Like the one in the wetlands one above, how do I call it? Above Hope Chapel, sort of over the middle, 41 acre place that they want to make a park and they want to turn part of it for houseless. Are you involved in that one? Yeah. Yeah. The eco village. Yeah.

34:29

Sorry about that. The ecovillage, that is a place where we need to think differently, where we could solve a lot of problems by having safe parking and a managed encampment on the highland and doing some restoration work of the wetland.

34:51

to help with flooding and sediment retention and habitat and all of those things. You know, that’s Kea Kea Gulch. That’s one of the three big gulches that come into Kihei. There’s four really, Waiakoa, Kalaniho Kauai, Waipuilani, and Kea Kea. They’re all big gulches that bring a lot of water into Kihei, into our populated areas.

35:16

And that water, if you map it out where the water goes, you’ll see that it’s all connected and that we have a whole series of unrecognized wetlands that that water traverses. But a lot of those wetlands have not been developed yet. You might ask, why did they not develop those areas? Well, probably because they were the wetlands and they were the hardest areas to develop.

35:43

But now because of a shortage of housing, a lot of developers have proposed to put affordable housing in those areas. But these are drainage ways. They’re waterways. They are wetlands. And they may not look like it during the summer. But if you went out there with a shovel and dug a hole, you know, somewhere between, you know, one foot and two feet, sometimes less than one foot, sometimes right at the surface, you’re going to find water. Wow.

36:11

Yeah, yeah, it’s not very deep at all. And when, of course, in the winter during a flood, it might be several feet above the surface of water.

36:22

So, you know, we need to honor that these are our waterways. We need to protect them, optimize the use of them. You know, we can grow food and fiber, have bird habitat, have green space, have carbon sequestered, have cooling effect of all of these plants. I mean, what does Kihei need more than anything is cooling. You know, it’s getting almost unlovable.

36:52

Who owns that land now? You know, I would have to go look it back up, but there’s two large parcels. One of them is 40 acres, and I think the other one also is close to 40 acres. But those two together are between Wellicahow and where the waterways cross into Laie, Mauka, and then by St. Teresa’s Church go out to the ocean at Laie, Mackay.

37:21

There’s also on the Makai side of South Kihei Road, the Halama wetlands. There’s I mean, there’s a lot of wetlands and some of these are pretty wet. Even in the summer, if you go walking around in them, you’ll find out. And, you know, they’re just they look pretty rough because they invasive plants have overgrown.

37:45

And there’s the opportunity. Those invasive plants are kind of like non-owner occupied houses. They use more than their share of the water. So if we could get those invasive plants out, you have more water. The water levels come up. We’ve measured this. We had a spring come up when we started doing restoration at Laiea Mauka. And they saw the same thing upcountry when they started doing restoration there.

38:14

In the gulches after the fire, suddenly springs appear. Why? Because you’re restoring the plants. And so you’re restoring that natural balance of that natural water machine that makes our water for us. You see out there, you know, some of you go to the meetings and get this kind of rich delivery of knowledge, clear and straight. Thank you very much, Robin.

38:40

I’ll tell you that didn’t come from meetings. That came from people with their hands in the lepo. That came from people showing up, doing the work, doing their kilo, making their observations. We saw that change when we did that work. And that’s a powerful lesson. That’s the stuff for years we’ve been seeing all the people taking care. The Sierra Club.

39:09

And you could probably name the groups. Names always change over time. But there’s so many committed people to these things. The more we restore the land, the more we will be restoring the water. That is for sure. Yeah. Well, I wonder, you know, when I think about these groups and all the sudden drying up, how funny, of the money.

39:39

You know, someone said, hey, Hale Mahalo is going to be cut 50% for senior housing support from the feds. It doesn’t sound like I can believe we’re in America. But putting those things, how can you put those things aside? How are these environmental groups making it through these lean times? Are you seeing working together more, more open to…

40:08

doing more together? I think we have to be and there’s less actual cash so there’s more there’s always a deep reliance on volunteerism and on community coming together to help so that is intensifying and

40:31

it has gotten competitive and like for instance save the wetlands who we uh didn’t pursue a grant this year because it you have to have a fiscal sponsor there’s a lot of infrastructure that goes along with you know having money but you can still you can still as a group go out and support other projects you can still as individuals or a group go out and do the work because that’s what matters is

40:59

doing the work. What’s lacking more than money is the willingness of landowners because these landowners, many of them bought this land from a speculative position that they were going to one day develop it and make money off of it. And of course, many other people had done that. So that was a reasonable thing for them to think that they could do. But at this point,

41:25

that land may have more value as flood retention or helping to generate water supply or helping water to go back into our aquifer instead of out into the ocean. So the value system has started to shift, but it needs to shift more to where we value taking care of the land more than we do making money off of the land.

41:52

We need the land to live, to have water. That’s why I asked who owns it. Very wealthy people that own X land that were looking to or speculators that were looking to make money could do a land swap. I mean, there’s just so many basic things. I don’t know why

42:23

there’s no one in that role. I don’t know what that role is in government. It’s all these little individual organizations. That thing that Kelly had created, that committee and the whole department that got blown up. Excuse my French. Well, you know, the county did just establish their first land manager. So that’s a positive step because before they never even looked at it as something to be managed, you know. But

42:53

My thought was the importance, whether you’re elected or not, the importance of recreation of a consciousness at the council level and going on of an environmental and climate action crisis that creates emergency housing solutions,

43:21

alternative housing solutions. You know, when you were describing a house and a second bedroom, a second kitchen outside, 40 years ago, God, now, in 88, when I got here originally,

43:40

Out in Wello, you know, it was the main house down the cliffs. There was a teepee and a kitchen and a little outside thing and a bunch of pods of many people for years. And it was a wonderful meeting place. And it had good social energy. It had good everything. And then years later, the county didn’t like. They came in. They closed it all down. And now, sadly, I mean…

44:09

I kind of walk the middle line on some of these because I’ve seen the places like that that didn’t have adequate sanitation. They didn’t have adequate management of wastewater. And so that contaminates our water supply and that’s a health hazard. So there is some area of compromise there that’s beneficial and not expensive.

44:34

not unnecessarily expensive or over the top or rigid in the requirements. So there’s some meeting in the middle, some place that we can meet to have housing that we can afford to build because it’s not only not affordable for individuals, we as a society can’t afford to build enough housing the way that we’re requiring it to be built.

44:59

If we could, we would have done that. But the retrofit aspect is another area of emergency that has to be really considered an important piece. You know, I mean, I say retrofit, experimental and cluster housing. Maybe it sounds like just a wide peak, but like you talk about the need for housing, I still go into the fact that what I see them doing on the west side,

45:26

They bring these trailers in for a zillion dollars, now rent them out to people that were broke and lost to places for thousands of dollars, supported by what? Monies that came from insurance claim or that didn’t come or all kinds of weirdness, pushing rents up, using land in ways that are not sustainable. What’s the deal? Why do we have a council? Why do we have a mayor?

45:56

You know, I will say that there has been some progress, not enough, but back to the wetlands when you were asking who owns it and why can’t we do these things. Well, the county council did put $5 million in the budget to try to buy one of these gulches where a developer was proposing affordable housing.

46:19

But the developer who had bought it for a million dollars suddenly wanted 15 million for it. And we only had five. You know, so there there’s there has has to be some limit to the exploitation. A choice domain would come in.

46:42

Right, right. But even with escalating property values, even eminent domain gets expensive. So we still have some adjusting to do on how we value things and the affordability of things. And our whole system kind of brings it all down as if it’s an individual thing, as if it’s an individual failure that you can’t afford a home or it’s an individual…

47:11

property owner’s problem that they have flooding or something. And it’s not. It’s communal. And the solution… And it’s an individual problem that our houses are a million dollars. But why, Kapu? And it’s like… That’s all societal…

47:30

And a lot of it is unlimited capitalism, you know, that market value. But markets, you know, markets aren’t bad things. You know, markets are markets. And I think we just have to be…

47:46

more resourceful, more creative, but also more flexible to allow something different than what’s happening. Because the systems we have, the controls we have in place have got us what we have right now. And we see that. Big, big, big, big, big thing. That’s the huge one. Do you know who Leona Baknamura is? She ran for the Paia Makawasi. I had her on the show a few weeks ago.

48:15

she ran 15 years ago and I said hey Leone you want to be on the show she said what would I talk about I said you still live in the same area yeah everything perfect now no good we have what to talk about so in that conversation we got to why are these things changing we’re not stupid we keep hearing how many experts you got to bring in from wherever and the answer is

48:43

Someone is controlling something, something that I don’t understand that something. I don’t understand it at all. But that element is out there horribly. I hope that can be addressed somehow because. Well, I want to go back to the government for a minute because the council has done things and the mayor has done things. I would like to see more, you know, and we have a council seat that’s open and

49:11

Right now, that will be decided on November 20th. So that’s next week. After the show airs, people can testify at the county council. There are three candidates to fill the seat of Tasha Kama, who passed away. May she rest in peace. They, you know, you have a choice. So look into these candidates, you know. Who are they by name? Who are they by name?

49:42

I don’t have all three. I just know Carolee Kamakona is one of them. I’m sorry, say it again. Carolee Kamakona, we know, who was running before. And I don’t know his first year, Kaunoe Batangan, who I don’t know, he may be working now with Tasha and that group. Well, yeah, she had indicated that she had confidence in him.

50:12

but my point is for people to look into these three candidates and decide which one they think will bring to the government what we need right now to think differently to value to have the values that the community has to value people and INA and buy over money you know those

50:42

Whatever you, and those are my thoughts, right? Those are what I think is wrong is that we have our values kind of out of order or not aligned properly.

50:53

So but each individual has to make that for themselves, you know, make those decisions for themselves. So what is it you think is wrong with this society? Which one of those three candidates is going to best align with what what your values are and you think needs to be done? We need people to get active in our government when it’s only money that shows up and talks.

51:17

then we get a very capitalist, money-driven system. If people show up and talk about other values, then we might get a different result than what we’ve gotten in recent years. So we need those people to show up. Not only locally, but nationally. That’s the reason we have the same thing going on all the way up and down. We only have a handful of minutes left, and I know that I move this thing in every direction.

51:44

So the third guy, there’s there’s Kelsen Batang Batangan, Carolee Kamikona and Virgilio Leo are at Coley Cole. So everybody needs to look up into those three and see which one they would support. Yeah. And let the council know and let the mayor know.

52:09

And if you want more nature-based systems, let the county council and the mayor know. They listen. They do listen. I got to tell you that. That’s one thing I learned running for office and participating in our system of government. I might not get everything I wish to see, but I do see that it has an effect when I show up. Well, just in that, I very much appreciate you. And I appreciate you sharing so freely here.

52:37

especially with all kinds of personal issues going on, your generosity and everything. Our whole community thanks you for the hard work that you’re doing. I hope if there’s another election, someone will twist your arm and ask you to run again. I’ve got plenty to do. I’m happy to show up and do my part. Yeah. These are funny times. Yeah.

53:05

You always seem so calm. You put it in such terms that I’d hope that we get that message out so broadly that we see some activity. Thank you for your heart and deliberate passion for all of us. Thank you very much for being with me. Here in the neutral zone, we are anything but neutral, but we love each other. We’re all part of a whole. We’re a holistic one.

53:34

But then there’s always that zinger. That’s it. But not in this world because the more we work together, the more we’re going to solve all these problems. I really think. Thank you for having me, Jason. Thank you for having me. Aloha, my dear.