FAM – Farm Apprentice Mentoring – Phyllis Robinson

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Jason Schwartz spends an hour with PHYLLIS ROBINSON, program coordinator/director of the Hawaii Farmers Union program, Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program. This program has generated NEW farmers, a trade needed to help Feed Our Island, as well as Save the Planet by regenerating the soil. They enjoy a high success rate of their graduates becoming active farmers. 3-2-2020

Summary & Transcript

[00:02 → 07:18]
Introduction and Background on Phyllis Robinson and the Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program (FAM)
Jason Schwartz opens the show “The Neutral Zone” on 88.5 FM, Maui, welcoming guest Phyllis Robinson. The show, now in its 80th episode, focuses on topics of environmental sustainability, regenerative agriculture, and community initiatives. Phyllis Robinson is introduced as a key figure involved with the Hawaii Farmers Union United and specifically with the Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program (FAM), a program aimed at training new farmers.

• Phyllis met Jason through a shared interest in regenerative agriculture and environmental advocacy.
• The Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program (FAM) started about six years ago, growing out of the Hawaii Farmers Union United’s initiative to address the aging farmer population (average age 60).
• FAM was formed after discussions with prominent local farmers and community leaders, aiming to “grow some farmers.”
• The program has graduated 62 apprentices, with 78% still actively farming, which is a significant retention rate.
• Currently, in its fifth year of county funding support, FAM has 33 apprentices this year, including five in Hana.
• FAM focuses on regenerative agriculture practices, emphasizing soil health, sustainability, and empowering new farmers.
• [07:18 → 15:01]
  FAM’s Structure, Support, and Financing for New Farmers
  The program has a two-stage approach:

1. Training apprentices in farming techniques and regenerative practices.
2. Helping graduates secure farmland and financing to establish their own farms.

• Apprentices receive guidance on negotiating long-term leases, farm business planning, and financing options.
• The USDA Farm Service Agency (FSA), represented by Buddy Nichols, is a key partner providing low-interest loans, recently increased from $300,000 to $600,000 to better reflect Maui’s land prices.
• Some apprentices have successfully purchased land using FSA loans.
• The FSA loans may have long amortization periods (10-30 years), but details on interest-only options or amortization specifics are Not specified/Uncertain.
• The program emphasizes the necessity of business plans for loan applications and land acquisition.
• Jason Schwartz, with a background in residential and commercial mortgages, contemplates the potential of innovative financing models for farmland acquisition.
• Discussion touches on the idea of large landowners using their assets to offer land leases or loans with favorable terms to encourage small-scale, family farming, thereby promoting sustainability and food security.
• [15:01 → 22:11]
  Land Ownership, Financial Models, and Regenerative Agriculture Philosophy
• Phyllis and Jason discuss the financial dynamics of land ownership on Maui, noting that many large landowners have deep pockets and could potentially support farming initiatives by leveraging their asset holdings.
• The idea is floated that these landowners could become part of a cooperative or financial ecosystem that supports food production rather than acting as adversaries.
• The role of land trusts, such as the Coastal Land Trust, is mentioned as a mechanism to preserve agricultural land in perpetuity.
• The 41,000 acres purchased by Mahi Pono is discussed as an example of large-scale land ownership with uncertain outcomes regarding the type of agriculture practiced and whether it benefits local food security.
• Citing a 2018 World Food Program report, Phyllis highlights that small family farms feed as much of the world’s population as large corporate farms, challenging common assumptions.
• The conversation touches on transparency issues with large landowners, community engagement, and missed opportunities for collaboration.
• [22:11 → 29:33]
  Community Organizing and Agricultural Cooperatives
• Phyllis recounts efforts by community groups such as ‘Aina First, involving women leaders and farmers, to negotiate with large landowners for access and management of agricultural land.
• Despite well-developed plans and community support, these efforts have faced obstacles, including limited transparency and the perception that deals have been pre-decided by large corporations.
• The failure of agricultural cooperatives in Hawaii is discussed, with a focus on finding new models for cooperative success.
• A new agricultural cooperative model is introduced that allows nonprofits and individuals to participate alongside farmers, incorporating a multi-stakeholder governance structure.
• This model protects cooperative principles such as one-member-one-vote, preventing investors from overpowering farmer members.
• Theresa Young from the Kohala Center on the Big Island is referenced as a resource for cooperative development and education in Hawaii.
• [29:33 → 35:35]
  Innovative Cooperative Investment Models and Biochar Technology
• The discussion explores complex cooperative investment models that separate investors in infrastructure (e.g., biochar production) from farmers who use the products.
• One example is the “Earth Power Lodge” and “Liquid Prairie” systems featured in the documentary “The Need to Grow” (referenced earlier).
• Investors fund hardware and infrastructure producing bio-supplements like biochar, while farmers use these products to increase yields.
• Members of such cooperatives may receive preferential access to these products, with some revenue cycling back to support the infrastructure.
• Phyllis advocates for farmers owning the entire value chain from production to consumer, ensuring they capture a fair share of profits.
• Michael Smith’s biochar-based regenerative agriculture model is highlighted as a promising innovation that could benefit communities like Hana by managing invasive species and reducing waste.
• [35:35 → 42:52]
  Pilot Projects, Biochar Benefits, and School Food Systems
• Michael Smith presented to Maui’s Climate and Resilience Committee on February 25, proposing a pilot project in Hana to use biochar technology for invasive species removal and waste management.
• The system could reduce costly and inefficient hauling of green waste to landfills by processing it locally into biochar.
• Biochar acts as a “condominium for microbes,” enhancing soil microbial life, nutrient retention, and water holding capacity, leading to healthier crops and reduced runoff—critical for protecting Maui’s coral reefs.
• The conversation expands to integrating local food production into school lunch programs, referencing the previous Farm to School initiative started by former Lieutenant Governor Shan Tsutsui.
• Phyllis supports the idea of a cooperative food hub that processes local produce safely and supplies schools, creating educational opportunities (field trips, farm-to-table awareness).
• However, USDA safety regulations and tight school lunch budgets (less than $1/meal) represent significant barriers.
• Federal subsidies heavily favor large corporate farms, enabling them to offer cheaper food, making it difficult for local farms to compete on price.
• [42:52 → 47:30]
  Challenges to Local Food Systems and Soil Depletion
• The price constraints on school lunch programs limit the inclusion of high-quality, nutrient-rich local food.
• Phyllis emphasizes that corporate farming practices, reliant on chemical inputs, have depleted soil health and nutrient density in food.
• This has contributed to widespread health problems and nutrient-poor diets.
• The historical context of corporate farming growth post-WWII is discussed, noting the use of chemical herbicides and pesticides derived from chemical warfare agents.
• Monocropping and chemical dependence have created a vicious cycle of soil degradation requiring increasing chemical inputs.
• The small farm and regenerative agriculture movement aim to reverse this trend by restoring soil health and improving food quality.
• Phyllis expresses optimism inspired by her apprentices’ enthusiasm and progress in regenerative farming education.
• [47:30 → 54:42]
  FAM Apprentices and Community Impact
• Apprentices learn from experts like Jerry Ross, an organic farmer and academic, about composting and soil biology.
• Michael Smith’s system complements these practices by transforming waste into valuable soil amendments.
• The system includes modular components (“dragons”) that burn green waste and generate biochar, scalable to different communities.
• The entire closed-loop system, including biochar production and application, represents a multi-million-dollar investment (approx. $4.5 million total for full buildout).
• Funding and ownership models envision co-ownership by farmers and investors, creating cash flow and sustainable infrastructure.
• Jason and Phyllis acknowledge the urgency of developing local food systems, given Maui’s heavy dependence on imports and limited food reserves (estimated six days of food supply).
• The FAM program’s success rate (78% still farming) is highlighted as a model for growing resilient, small-scale agriculture.
• There is a call to re-examine government definitions and support for commercial farming to better include small family farms.
• [54:42 → 56:05]
  Closing Remarks and Contact Information
• Jason invites Phyllis back for follow-up interviews with apprentices to share their perspectives.
• Phyllis provides her contact email (phyllisrobinson@aol.com) for those interested in the Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program.
• Jason encourages listeners to access previous shows on MauiNeutralZone.com and tune in weekly for ongoing discussions about sustainability, agriculture, and community initiatives.
• The show concludes with expressions of appreciation for Phyllis’s work and the importance of continuing the conversation about regenerative agriculture and food security on Maui.

1. 1. 1. Key Insights and Conclusions

• Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program (FAM) is a proven model for training new farmers in regenerative agriculture, with strong retention and county support.
• Financial support through USDA Farm Service Agency loans is critical for enabling new farmers to acquire land and infrastructure.
• Large landowners and financial institutions on Maui have potential roles as partners, not adversaries, in expanding sustainable farming.
• Small family farms feed as much of the world’s population as large corporate farms, underscoring the importance of supporting local, small-scale agriculture.
• New multi-stakeholder cooperative models could provide inclusive governance and allow diverse participants (farmers, investors, nonprofits) to collaborate.
• Michael Smith’s biochar and closed-loop regenerative agriculture system offers innovative solutions for soil restoration, invasive species management, and waste reduction.
• Integration of local food into school lunch programs faces regulatory and budgetary challenges but offers a promising avenue for community health and education.
• Soil depletion and nutrient loss are major consequences of industrial agriculture practices; regenerative farming aims to reverse these trends.
• Maui’s food security is precarious due to import dependence, making local farming education and infrastructure development urgent priorities.

1. 1. 1. Quantitative Data Table

Metric	Value
FAM program age	~6 years
Number of FAM graduates	62
Percentage of graduates still farming	78%
Current number of apprentices	33 (including 5 in Hana)
USDA FSA loan maximum amount	Increased to $600,000
Average age of Maui farmers	60 years
Estimated Maui food supply without imports	6 days
Estimated investment for full biochar system build	$4.5 million

Keywords

Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program (FAM), regenerative agriculture, USDA Farm Service Agency (FSA), biochar, cooperative model, multi-stakeholder cooperative, soil health, small family farms, Mahi Pono, invasive species management, food security, school lunch programs, Maui agriculture, sustainable farming, Michael Smith, green waste management, earth power lodge, liquid prairie.

1. 1. 1. Summary

This episode of The Neutral Zone with Jason Schwartz features Phyllis Robinson discussing the Farm Apprentice Mentoring Program (FAM), a successful initiative to train and support new farmers on Maui with a focus on regenerative agriculture. The program has strong community and county backing, with apprentices benefiting from education, mentorship, and assistance securing land and financing through USDA programs.

Phyllis and Jason explore innovative cooperative models and the potential for large landowners to support small-scale farmers through creative financial arrangements. The discussion highlights the pressing need to restore soil health, improve local food systems, and incorporate sustainable, nutrient-rich food into institutions like schools despite budgetary and regulatory challenges.

Michael Smith’s biochar technology is presented as a breakthrough for regenerative farming that simultaneously addresses waste management, soil restoration, and invasive species control. The conversation underscores the urgency of building resilient local food systems on Maui, given its limited food reserves and vulnerability due to import dependence.

The episode closes with an invitation for further dialogue and community engagement to grow sustainable agriculture and food sovereignty for Maui’s future.

Transcript

0:02

good morning everyone Aloha I’m Jason Schwartz this is the neutral zone I have guests face Robinson rolling today [Music] I’ve been around for no many man soul [Music] [Music] please you but what good morning everyone although I’m Jason Schwartz this is the neutral zone we’re at 88.5 FM kak you the voice of Maui we’re also found on Facebook live you can find us the next day at Maui neutral zone dot-com I bring that up because all our shows are there and we have them all as a library because we know that in the

01:37

world you know the mayor may not have found us we’re now at show number 80 and we’re doing every week except for holidays and so we’ve had some really great people and I like to do it by areas of values and interest and I’ve been involved in things with I want to call it regeneration of soil and farming and things about food and we know we’ve gone through all kinds of subjects and a couple of weeks ago I had an opportunity to meet this young lady and I said what an interesting lady her name is Phyllis

02:12

Robinson those thank you for coming here to our show my pleasure to be here Jason I couldn’t have been a Monday morning what a wonderful thing to do okay I am I’m hoping you’re close enough just the further you are away the more equity it sounds to the people in the air so how’s that oh that’s good mmm okay and if you want pull it down a little bit so they can see your beautiful face there you go perfect now I’m now talking just will see normal that’s good yeah that’s good okay yeah

02:44

now so Phyllis when I met you I was like wow here she is um were you is that with that the movie that we first met or did we meet before that I think the movie was the first time we met but I believe you’ve come to farmers union meetings in the past oh yeah well so let me give you a trail to here it was a couple of months ago a few months ago the mankind project a men’s group that gets together to the betterment of having the young people you know stand on the shoulders of those came before that’s us and we had a

03:21

special interest group Genesis young and Kalon Prensky Paul Sabol David Johnston I hope I’m not forgetting anyone and me I think we’re talking about how we could create bills because Genesis working with Kelly King and trying to come up with things that would help our environment and in that meeting Paul Sabol and Chris were talking about this movie called the need to grow and Paul was starting to talk to them about this thing that he saw in this movie and I thought I should probably call up

03:55

there too because more than just a special interest group I wanted to do something so we found out that he was going to be coming to see maybe if he’s lucky Larry Ellison and the people and what they’re doing over in lanai that free people see this guy’s working on a project you probably saw a show two weeks ago Michael was on and he was before the climate and resilience Committee of the council Michael Smith is his name anyway when we he came here and we Chris said let’s put him on at

04:28

the college we’ll do a movie thing and we had a room that the person at the college thought oh you’ll maybe have 30 people at maximum we never get attendance and the room was like over full yeah the room holds 60 it had a hundred and more were probably walking away and that anyway this movie had something about environment and regenerative agriculture and just it was really a pretty good thing to most people in the audience and in that audience there was one woman who I don’t exactly know how it is that we struck a

05:03

conversation and it just blossomed and then I realize oh Vince Mina’s here he knows that Phyllis you work with the Hawaii Farmers Union that’s correct I was yes and no you can tell me that and then you’ve got this special project at you’re working on that was a separate group or part of it yes of the the farm apprentice mentoring program or fam is a program of the Hawaii Farmers Union United and it actually formed and was born six years ago back when the Farmers Union was just one one quite large

05:47

program out at the Haiku Community Center actually it started to the Pukalani down below the hannibal Tavares Center and then it grew and then it grew and it kept growing and we were averaging a hundred people every single meeting and somewhere around the 70th meeting bill Greenleaf who was then the president of the Farmers Union said let’s grow some farmers the average age of farmers is sixty and so we met in Susan Tetons living room we gathered Alika Atty James simply siano as many farmers

06:32

in the room Simon Russell and we talked about what would a really excellent beginning farmer program look like and from there we created fam and fam now has graduated 62 farmer apprentices across this aisle a many of them are practicing seventy-eight percent are still farming yes so we are great yeah we just did a survey this year of our 62 graduates and now we have twenty no actually thirty three apprentices this year including our five out in Hana so and we have gotten our funding from the the county of Maui and we are now a line

07:18

item in the county’s budget and this is our fifth year of funding we’re in our fifth cohort and we focus on regenerative agriculture how do you measure progress I mean what kind of questions do we ask for the county I always say what is the county doing this for they want to cultivate new farmers do they say ok we’re going to give possibilities for these people to farm land are they involved in any way like that also well our program actually has two parts and the second part is where our farmers are

07:54

ready to make the big leap and get farm land of their own and we connect them with the people they need to know in order to do that some are real estate agents you may you know know hue star hue star comes and speaks with our apprentices about how to negotiate a long-term lease as a farmer which is really important if you’re going to buy land what should you be looking for the Farm Service Agency comes and speaks to our apprentices probably you’ve heard of Buddy Nichols that’s the USDA’s Farm

08:32

Service Agency they give slow interest loans to farmers and this year they shot up the the amount to six hundred thousand because there were complaints that the original 300,000 was not enough to buy land on Maui so now our apprentices nobody they can go to him a couple of our apprentices have actually bought land and so they become the they become the peer mentors to their fellow apprentices and they give them the information that they need to build up the information that’s required and it’s

09:20

like a business plan you can’t really go to any landowner or for that matter to the Farm Service Agency without having a farm plan for that matter to the bank to get a loan well yes I think I don’t want to say this but I think the farm service agencies interest rates are lower than banks and according to buddy nickels he has a lot of money to give away and so not give away he’s got a lot of money to lend that’d be nice it would be nice they long long lost ten years twenty thirty thirty year loan mm-hmm

10:05

yeah and you can use the you know you can use the funding for your farm infrastructure some of our apprentices who are off-grid have actually bought their their large water catchment tanks using FSA funds are they interest only loans are they I’m only curious because the land isn’t going away only getting more precious so interest only loans could work because the value seems to keep going up yes do they do that or they do amortize do you know I believe I hesitate to answer that question only reason I’m thinking

10:40

of when you talk to earlier you working right grant sometimes right thanks that is actually how fam got started the Haleakala well there’s there’s thirteen chapters of the Farmers Union statewide and there’s four on Maui and back then when we first started there was only one chapter statewide and it was called the Maui farmers union United and at that meeting was the meeting at which we formed fam and go back to the question that you just asked because I just had a brain you know one of those little

11:16

bubbles in the brain what was your original question can you remember I was following you my question really is yeah I am you know when you started talking I’m off what listening to you and I wasn’t even remembering the question what seconds all right let’s let’s go to something here’s what I’m wondering yes when you have land land goes land and when you get a loan you normally pay amortize you’re trying to pay off the principal when you have land with an intention of

11:54

pharming intention of doing something that’s going to create long-term good there must be some kind of advantage to making it interest only it’s a lease right so well actually you’re it you’re buying you’re buying the land yes okay who and I’d be curious to see how who owns the land because sometimes some of these large land owners this is me time I’m curious to see what the loans look like you’re talking about but Lao large land owners have it in their financial ability with their

12:30

assets to get loans on land and they internally could move some of their assets to this category to secure a loan or to be there long term and fit in their financial statement so that the payments on the land for like an encouragement to a farmer mm-hmm where they wouldn’t have to pay off the principal also that they only are paying the interest and the whole purpose being and maybe they want to sell it someday for a profit but I’m thinking a long term as far as food scarcity and value-added trying to come up with a

13:11

model that is not quite as financially intensive to encourage more farmers wonderful it sounds like you got a background in this Jason well I’m what I’m trying to do I I was in the mortgage business in residential and commercial but I know in land I’ve never really worked with the if the farm loans well maybe you should start I’m gonna start but I’m not thinking what I’m trying to do is in these times when our goal is to create as many farms as we can yes to I want to say put carbon back in the

13:48

ground you know I mean I don’t want to disconnect us from a global important thing that we have to replenish the land so regenerative agriculture in my mind means that we are teaching people how to do it and doing it on a small scale is warm and fuzzy it’s nicely carrying a little baby but I’m thinking on being something unique April just like I always talk at the Maui Arts and Music thing about being an example to the world the self sustainability model Maui mm-hmm financially we could be an example to

14:25

the world yes especially on an island where I don’t think anyone here can say the land values have gone down anywhere on this island you have they know so if the people that owned a lot of the land have it on their financial balance sheets and they want to get a loan they can get a loan because they have resources that’s correct right yeah some of them actually are banks I don’t know if they have to stay arm length or not but they could surely be doing this without putting the land in the equation that’s what I’m trying

15:01

to say they could own the land and that land as a bank could really give security they could be like almost like the bank Joseph in Egypt what is really true cuz food and food sources and land that would be guarantee a program that would get more and more individuals and that wouldn’t could be big farmers but we’re not talking about that we’re small you’re developing small small family farms yeah and getting them financed were some people who didn’t have they don’t have the money to go buy off five

15:37

hundred thousand dollar piece of property and no to the but they might have to buy the things that they need to work on this property that’s right anyway that’s that was my whole may be unusual slant yeah no it’s great and and Jason I I’m as I listen to you and realize how little I know about this and how much I feel like I should know about this I may invite you in to come and speak with our apprentices about what these different options are and maybe are creating we’re creating off

16:11

that may not exist and that’s why I think that’s fine very exciting because that’s that’s the kind of thing that I think we can do from here yeah we’re unique we’re on an island we’re in the middle of the Pacific a lot of the people that are on the land that have all the resources that some people think of the big bad wolf what if the big bad wolf became part of the security long term in the bank they they don’t lose anything their assets continued to be value they’re part of this food co-op

16:42

that can keep our island and food trained more and more people to be farmers me an example will really be an example to our future generations because you know it’s really interesting in our lifetimes I’m gonna say you’re much younger than me but I’m old I’m 69 years old so oh I’m I’m you I may be months younger than you okay I’ll be 69 in August well then when we we grew up and I remember it was always people were in the country and then moved to the cities and now then the cities get to

17:21

glutted and they start running out back to the country and now the world has gotten to a point where we really have to do some of them so people are realizing and wanting to get spread out if they all could be small this doesn’t work for everywhere but we’re in a unique situation here yes right Hawaii we are gonna unique a unique resource base with those big owners whether that whether this becomes the Kingdom of Hawaii or whether it stays that you know the state of Hawaii or whatever those resources whoever owns them

17:57

financially are really of great value yeah so they could that piece of that financial could be I don’t want to say take it out of the equation but you know the people that have the very big money that’s why Bloomberg can spend the billion and not flinch his interest is a billion you know and I say that about these large owners deep pocket deep ownership base can do a lot to be part of this rather than think of them as adversarial yeah it might actually be a healing thing I think so well I’m I’m noticing that the coastal

18:40

land trust people are enticing more and more large landowners to put their their land into perpetuity where it just stays let’s say agricultural land and it allows for agriculture and that’s it and I think that some of us wanted to think that that was what the 41,000 acres the mahi pono purchased was also considered to be important a glance to the state and so that keeps it in Ag but what kind of AG and that has been the big question mark is that are the corporate farms feeding the world will they feed the

19:25

world on these four will they feed Maui on those 41 thousand acres or are the do they need the help of these small family farms because the World Food Program the WFP released a report in 2018 saying that fall small family farms are feeding the world as much as we you know we were taught that you know this the the big farms the big AG the one that are heavily subsidized by the federal government are feeding the world and it’s actually not true so by the way this is Phyllis Robinson you should all know that Phyllis is from

20:09

has a program to teach farmers to be farmers to beach teach individuals to be farmers right yes and and folk with a focus on regenerative agriculture what we’re here because we want to continue I think a really important factor in our world now that the world is changing and we have to I kind of say shake up the marbles mm-hmm training people to be farmers with what I remember as a kid the 4-h clubs and all kinds of things that were around that were there to teach people to be farmers and then the

20:50

corporate farmers took over and when we talk about in my hypo no we all had great hopes and well I still have great hopes only because only because because I met Michael Smith and I know that this process to take greenways turning it into power creating biochar fight o suta khals that make things grow like Jurassic Park has to be really important to someone that’s growing food and if lots of little people do it will we can all do it and if they don’t do it we’ll be doing it and that’s why I say your

21:31

program is is very important and talking outside of a big landowner a 41,000 acre person who’s doing that we are question or motives you know I don’t really know why I try not to question their motives I think they’re stumbling forward based on when when they came here here’s my guess everyone thought Shan satsui was and still is a really nice guy who could negotiate and do things for this island right I still think of that that’s who he is now he may have been handed a thing that said here’s what we’ve got

22:11

now and here’s what we’ve got to do we have these relationships that we are in the part that I have a problem is the transparency part because I think if they were transparent about what’s going on people in our community would virtually volunteer but for very very modest be part of a real solution were working with them to do just what you said I’ve seen farm plans I mean I 2016 who’d made that plan up Maui tomorrow put out this plan yeah it was a beautiful plan which is a look at what

22:52

to do a big chunk of land and how it can serve and do it all now that hasn’t really ever been addressed that I know of in any formal way have you ever seen that well at the Hawaii Farmers Union convention not this year but the year before a group of women approached me to join in with them and those women were part of an organization called aina first okay well you talked about Susan Tita yes and COO Tara that’s right and and I think Beth sabot was part of that group and Sandra hey I think those were

23:39

the women that were at that were there and at that time we had asked for a meeting with the then head of the Department of Agriculture who happened to be at the convention and we said to him we’ve been trying to I’m saying we they were trying to get in the door to make a bid for that land and utilizing some of what mahi pono Jenny Pell all these folks had come up with as the solution for my opponent made Maui tomorrow did I say my oh no thank you solutions and no one’s listening right

24:21

wait a minute I haven’t finished so at that meeting with the head of Department of Agriculture he intimated that it was already a done deal that all that land had already been was already what do they call it in his growth in escrow so we were very sad about that and we walked away back to our booths at the convention with a heavy heart because we we ina first had been trying to get a meeting with with a and B for the purchase of the land so and they had a plan they had a beautiful rendering they

25:08

had experts they had everything that they thought I saw it was really beautiful and we’ll talk more about that because I spoke to the guy that was behind it you know if they mentioned a big name they’d get through the door it’s a very sad thing I know I’m finding in some of the meetings that I’ve had it’s only because I got an introduction from someone that that’s important to them that they even saw me but then so I bring it up because that is really a real issue I understand well we’re gonna

25:40

take a break for our sponsors we Akama in alone and Harry eager and remember him he has a blog he there.i sponsors for the month we’re gonna take a break and we will be back very shortly with Phyllis Robinson and I’m Jason Schwartz hang on a second the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz would like to thank Maui Arts and Music Association tree makers Foundation of Maui for their support since 1991 hundreds of television shows and their maui arts and music comm website they have champion self-sustainability on now

26:19

the neutral zone is earth live Mondays at 11 a.m. and replayed Saturday at 7 a.m. on kak u 88.5 FM your voices now get a jump of protecting Maui’s coral reefs no need to wait for Hawaii’s new sunscreen water go in effect this is Archie kelapa asking you to make the switch today to sunscreens that do not contain grief harming oxybenzone or octane oxy find out about better choices at maui reef start slash sunscreen sponsored with aloha by Maui Nui marine resource Council Maui Visitors Bureau

26:54

and the county of Maui Office of Economic Development hi this is Steve summers join me Sunday mornings from 1 to 2 a.m. with a replay Sunday mornings from 10 till 11 for the oldies Time Machine it’s familiar oldies from the 50s 60s and 70s plus some of those rare tracks you won’t hear on any other radio program right here on ka k you 88.5 the voice of Maui I see you’re in goodwill and just past that vintage denim jacket you spot miniature donut earrings you lean in that’s the scent of something success

27:41

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donate today and give and don’t miss the neutral zone Mondays at 11 a.m. 1 88.5 FM the voice of maui this is Jason Schwartz we are back here with Phyllis Robinson on the neutral zone you can find this show and all our shows at Maui neutral zone calm you can look at Facebook live now you can go to kak your radio 88.5 FM and everything all shows live on youtube but now in neutral zone dot-com I think of it as a library because not everyone has found us yet and as they do and find it interesting interview and they start

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going back to they see there are a lot of interesting interviews and they all fit together with a plan in mind or plans in mind and that’s the power of cooperation you know I mean I when I was I’m here with Phyllis Phyllis Robbins remember and Phyllis we’re talking about coops agricultural coops yeah something everyone knows about that’s in agriculture because they know they have a product and they have to get it to market and there’s much more power and cooperation to make sure that everyone’s

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product is sold and gets the market yes yeah cooperatives have not have not done so well in Hawaii and we’re not quite sure why but we’d like to figure out maybe rather than focusing on the problem maybe we can focus on the solution to coops not working in Hawaii you’re talking about agricultural coops right yes I’m talking coops I’m the reason I brought up agricultural coops because that’s a model there’s an our new there’s a new agricultural co-op model tell me that allows for nonprofits and

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individuals to be involved in such a way that the Securities and Exchange Commission that is involved with so many people involved in projects if done in this new agricultural co-op can bring in all kinds of different partners big and small to co-op together well now agricultural co-op is a different maybe a specifically different model well not necessarily I’ve heard of the model you’re talking about it’s a multi stakeholder model and Theresa young from the Kohala Center on the Big

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Island comes over every year and speaks to our farmer apprentices about coops and they have a part of the Kohala center called the co-operative Small Business Development Center and their job they have technical assistance money from the USDA to go all over the state and talk about coops and they introduced to us the notion of a multi stakeholder that is similar to what you just described Jason not everyone is a farmer in this always have to you could be an investor in this you can bring in different kinds of other resources right

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into this but you have to be careful with investors as long as they are one-person one-vote once once they try to wield their power over let’s say the farmers if there are farmer members that are part of the coop then it kind of starts to resemble something else not a cooperative so it’s hard for investors you know they’re invested probably more so than each individual farmer member well I’m gonna bring up something maybe maybe it’s different but maybe it’s not what if you had a you guys some of you

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know what an earth power lodge is and know what a liquid Prairie is if you saw the movie need to grow but what if you were wanting to invest in that there are investors in the hardware and the system and its output mm-hm and then there are the farmers that use it now some of those farmers are also investors those investors want to get a yield but the farmers want to that’s a whole separate kind of a thing so when you’re talking about a co-op influencing farmers I’m really not talking about that kind of

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come using the co-op structure in agriculture to be able to have this investments into equipment that gets a yield of a product that’s this bio supplement than the biochar which is a cash flow positive cash flow business model which separate from the farmers well we wouldn’t want it I I happen to believe that the way farmers can make a living is if they share I think you maybe you’ve met our knees sauce before but Arne has a integrative framework for the farmer where you’re talking about

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with with their yield where the the farmer owns the entire process all the way to the consumer so that so that they are co-owners in a infrastructure and it might be that the the infrastructure that I’ve had in mind doesn’t include a by-product that the investors might be interested that’s what I’m trying to look trying to say okay some people may want it but they don’t have the money to put this big piece of new thing into place so there’s investors coming in well those investors are now in an

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agricultural cooperative olve their produce necessarily maybe it does but I’m trying to think of a return on investment on putting money into into the live Italy yeah the facility which creates a by-product which is a cash flow right and now members of the coop again that’s why we that’s why we need what do we say attorneys to do it right or someone that understands the coop model but members of the coop they can buy at a preferred rate the product that’s coming off if right that’s part

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of it and then their yield a small percentage goes back to the people that created this supplement so that becomes the way they that their cash flow can support the creation of this thing yeah you know there’s something that you’re saying does so well in a diagram especially on radio on radio it’s really hard to to envision this without a diagram I am excited about Michael Smith’s model and I think that it has a lot of potential and I know that there are places like Hana that would benefit

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tremendously from from that and I think you had wanted to talk a little bit about the Hana model yeah you know the Michael Smith presented on the 25th of February to the climate and resilience committee you were there and you’re very eloquent opening about why they should listen to this yes thank you and at that meeting afterwards I got a text from shainsa Nancy councilman who said he’d like to see a pilot test project in Hana because he’d mentioned that the meeting that they have a problem with

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African tulip and other invasive species and Michael Smith had reference to him in that meeting that in fact we could take those invasive species make them now I fuel and get rid of them and we could really clean up and like you were just mentioning that right now they’re hauling green waste from Hana where they holing it all the way into the town to the landfill isn’t that extraordinary I know it it makes no sense at all Thanks no sense so you’ve ever driven the ha no ha what so a pilot project out there and

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now though maybe the county will we’ll see you know that maybe you know that process better than I do where’s the money gonna come from who’s gonna put the mama to go to the environmental management group for I don’t know if it’s really alone we’re gonna try it so maybe they call it a loan in certain for to be I don’t know that’s what we’ll find out but there are other investors who would like to be part of this because that is part of this earth power Lodge this closed loop system to create

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this biochar with the writing I call it writing stimulants mm-hmm biochar it is like a piece of charcoal except it has lots of surface area like a 2-inch piece of charcoal if opened up in surface area to be the size of a football field so what is the significance well when these when the algae in combination with Michael and what they’re doing in their system creates enzymes that help the plants grow more quickly and they don’t have to work all that stuff creates greater output and you know that that kind of a

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system can work takes care of multiple problems at the same time well it cleans up the soil and it makes the soil and use less water and when you use less water in the soil what happens is is that you have less runoff and when you have less runoff and you’re living on a fragile beautiful island like ours then we’re going to be protecting our reefs and people don’t quite understand how that works but if you think about the soil and you think about biochar it’s a condominium for microbes and so the microbes are able to

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inhabit that space and multiply and when the microbial action happens in the soil then you’re not only in increasing the possibility that water will retain but you’ll also increasing the nutrients in the soil and the nutrient uptake of the plant which means healthier people and when you think about healthier people I like to think about healthier keiki and boy would I love to see Michael’s be in combination with a food co-op that would actually see food in our school lunch programs and work with the procurement

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system and chanson and see when he was lieutenant governor he introduced to satsui did I say say I mention chance to sue in NC shainsa Nancy is our county council member I was talking about former lieutenant governor Shan Tsutsui and Shan had created the farm to school initiative and I believe that it’s still in existence it’s just that Shan is now working with mahi pono so I’m hoping that he hasn’t lost that vision and that we can see huge amounts of healthy food making its way into our school lunch

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programs what I keep hearing about the school I Susan t-tom yeah I was sure last week tell me well and the thing that we were talking about school lunch programs is you got to do all this and pay for it with less than a buck a meal in other words the price constraints and all that really make the good quality food you’re talking about harder cost prohibitive well think about it why is it that they can do it for a dollar a meal do you think that the big corporate farmers are making such a huge profit that they can

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provide it at that price level no they’re all being subsidized they’re being subsidized by the federal government which is the ones that are procuring this food and we’re saying procure local food cut down on the amount that you have to pay for fossil fuels to get it here have you is have you had any kind of additional response from Shan Tsutsui we have you I tried to meet with him about this but um it was the startup time and it was really hard to get a meeting with him but well that’s back to what we were talking

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about before the break people going to a and B are you trying to go see my PO know me trying to go see Mike oh no and go to try you know unless you somehow come in with them knowing that there’s a potential bite of something they want they’re not quite as open as we’d like them to be well I want to see I want to see our kids in our schools understanding and I think the school garden network here Thank You Lane huff Thank You Kathy beckylyn for a grow some good I think the school garden Network

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is beginning to really interest kids in growing their own foods that’s great and so when you have that then I believe that if we started bringing local food in in the form of let’s say a salad bar that I think this what’s in the salad bar should be the school lunch the school garden produce but we they can’t do that because of USDA safety laws if we had a cooperative food hub right that maybe has Michaels that’s part of that whole operation if we had that then the kids would get to go on a field trip and

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bring their food into a certified kitchen and see it processed in a way that’s safe and then suddenly it ends up back in the school and then they get to talk to their peers about how this is the food we grow where is there an obstacle to make that happen yeah it’s the one that you brought up it’s the fact that it’s a dollar you know how do we make the price points well so and so but you’re not getting wood getting meetings with some of these people would they be able to adjust it

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or it has to be alone you think it’s got to be well you talk to Susan Teton she tried to do this nationwide a long time ago and and she was moderately successful but not in the ways in which she had hoped and I think that what we need to do is think about how to subsidize our small our smaller family farms that are growing locally because we’ll never be able to to meet those price points however if we were subsidized in the same way that these big corporate farmers are subsidized then we might be able to provide it as a

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local food and a local food that’s grown in a way in which you’re getting that nutrient uptake that I’m talking about so it’s not just empty calories it’s really substantial it one of Michael’s big things he’s talking about the quality of the probe well I don’t know how many people really realize that when they get produce right now how depleted of vitamins and minerals and things that we all think are there but they are they are so depleted it’s really like eating

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cardboard I mean I don’t mean to be rude about it but it’s really the truth and in our lifetime it’s gotten worse and worse and our eyes have been open to it is what’s that reason why do you think that’s money is that what’s done it well mostly corporate farming and you know became like a big deal you were mentioning it you know that when we came out of the second world war we had this idea that we could feed the world on these big corporate farms and we started making huge yields that you know were

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being shipped to places like maybe Europe where they were trying to rebuild after you know after a major world war and so we had a need we had a lot of impoverished people and we needed to feed them well we also were using the chemicals leftover from the Second World War they decided that they had a use and so they started to use those chemicals that were used in chemical warfare for herbicides and pesticides and you start putting them on your crops big time then what are you doing over time is that

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you’re depleting the soils ability to give those plants the nutrition uptake that is needed to have healthy food and what has been the result of very unhealthy population right just extraordinary how we’ve depleted our soil you know we’ve heard again as long as we’re alive we know mono cropping growing one thing in the same soil will deplete that soil yes so you have to supplement it with chemicals and pesticides and then next year it’s worse and you got to put more on and more on and that’s the right word

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more on this is a would do that but meanwhile that’s what they did and then they move and take more land and then they bring more chemicals well well we want to see when it turn that oh yeah we want to see that you know we have a fairly close-knit community here on Maui yeah and I think that there no one can really argue with wanting to feed children healthy foods not just children all of us healthier foods because we see the amount of disease there is in our population and it’s extraordinary and

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we’ve done it to ourselves you know I mean for the convenience of going to fast food we eat things that are full of all kinds of you know that’s what we’re talking about now our society you know makes it easier and easier to go after something cheap and easy and quick it really is really it’s depleted our society well I’ll tell you Jason you would be thrilled to meet some of our apprentices because they bring me hope they’re the look in their eyes when they are starting to learn from Jerry Ross

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what is actually makes for healthy soil and they’re getting it kind of maybe more detail than they want because Jerry is an academic you know but he’s also a successful organic farmer up in Kula and he brings to them and then they go up on to his farm this past Sunday they built one of his miraculous compost piles with all the food waste that he’s that he’s collected and you know and and just I mean composting is nothing new but being able to reuse and that’s why Michaels a system Michael Smith system is so

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interesting is that I I was intrigued by the idea of like well I thought it was going to be food waste that was going in this system because we have so much food waste well we can have multiple that’s the issue really multiple dragons each a dragon is where it burn it takes the green waste and burns it with the power it’s got that came off the other part of the process right yeah so you can have multiple dragons but to get certified on recertified and and all the different things you need to be pure that doesn’t

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mean you can’t have two dragons or three dragons and separated out food waste one non again in other words that’s the whole point of this once we start that’s why one in Hana we can have one in Hana and one here and one there and one here and one there feeding and you know in combination with one or more earth power lot them and that’s what’s so beautiful about the system is about four million to build it well consider this the yes well Michael you know broke it into pieces he it’s a million and a half and

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then another million then another what it is it’s built in stages but remember this is thought of as a whole closed-loop system you can talk about liquid Prairie those are fun words and because he was Montana but liquid Prairie is this closed thing that looks like the earth power Lodge because he did it with different investors before and because he’s made upgrades and software and he can improve it he thinking about as a new model and he doesn’t want to confuse people with and say what he did before it’s like Model T

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and jet planes maybe not quite as dramatic of it but Model T and now a modern Chevrolet as things get better in the future will get better and with the old people and so many voices like you just expressed too many people in the middle telling you you can do this and do that and do this and do that can slow down what you’re doing so Michael Smith is now Reed genatech pure no encumbrance from other situations and so what we do here the first part is need to create a dragon you know the look the first

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dragon when we’re talking about starting with $250,000 on the heels of that concurrently building the frame so it’s it’s about a million million and a half in the first period and then there’s more and then again months later when they start making the stuff coming out of it either for use in the fields or for sale you can see it suddenly is brought in cash flow even before you get to the other part of the system and so it’s what four and a half million dollars would get all the pieces

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together that’s great tell our farmers to see the thing is some people say oh that built by a county but they don’t need to be built by the county it’s built by the people that own it that will use it will have its product and so that there could be investors investing in this thing and then the farmers some may be the same people so that’s really would be the the most ideal for them there vesting in it they know they’re gonna use it themselves so they can get greater yields and they

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own it and that’s the kind of model you were talking about earlier probably where it’s whether the people are involved with the product and I don’t know why regular coops didn’t make it here but I never really want to look back because I think we’re right now especially now and in the where we are now right now we have such extraordinary problems if come I don’t know what the thing is if the boats stopped coming in how many weeks is it how many days we don’t have we have six days six days so

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we all have to learn how to grow yes and so that’s what that’s why your program is so important because I’m running low on time can you imagine we’ve been here in our it’s it’s flown by we have like three four minutes it’s amazing do you do a call in because there were a few of my apprentices that I alerted about the show if they want to call them I know but they have questions or anything there might be questions yeah or just statements about what it’s been like for

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them to be part of a program like this and well if they want to call they’re welcome to but that we got three minutes 8 7 3 3 4 3 5 is the call in line 8 o 8 8 7 3 3 4 3 5 but mostly what we were doing here is setting up the climate and I would imagine that every apprentice that you just said 78 percent are still farmers yes that speaks bundles yeah bushels as we say yeah yeah and and there I think that the the model that we’ve held up as you know what constitutes a commercial farmer is something that has to be

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looked at not only by you know those of us who are involved in growing farmers but those at the at the government level too because often government looks at success in a particular way and when you’re talking about feeding your population then the kinds of economic models that we’ve operated on around our food system really have to be looked at differently and I’m interested because we have a census coming up and so often federal funds make their way down to places like Hawaii based upon

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the census numbers and I’m concerned about that do we have a caller no we have a minute and a half I’m concerned that by the time we would like to have you back that you feel like you may I come back with a I would hope so yeah with with maybe an apprentice or my my my wonderful yes assistant not only that RJ Pinsky well the answer is yes yes yes I’d love to I mean but we have only one minute left that is just amazing to me you know I these shows they just raised by I’m here with Phyllis Robinson who has a farm

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apprentice training program how do people get in touch with you through my email address was that P is and Paul F is in Frank IE r ro r OB as in boy at aol.com and we’ll have that up on the screen because we are running out of time isn’t that amazing Phyllis thank you for joining us my pleasure listen to the show again there’s lots of content now in neutral zone comm you’ll see it as show number 80 thank you for joining us come back every Monday go look up on our on the net you’re gonna see a lot of

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good things Phyllis Robinson you are one beautiful person and thank you for being here with everyone thank you Jason we look forward to having you back again and we look forward to having you guys too so make sure you come back next week Monday at 11:00 that join us at the new days off hello everyone have a good week [Music]