Jeff Heisel shares his Love of MANKIND and DOG-kind!

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Jason Schwartz with JEFF HEISEL about his time with Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh AKA Osho in 1976-86 in India and Oregon, DOGS and Dog Songs and the MAUI HUMANE SOCIETY Adopt-A-Dog Program And The MANKIND PROJECT… a Full and Fun Hour

Summary & Transcript

   “The Neutral Zone” with Jason Schwartz and Jeff Heisel

1. 1. 1. 1. [00:00 → 04:20] Introduction and Early Encounters with Jeff Heisel

• [00:00] Jason Schwartz opens the show “The Neutral Zone,” introducing guest Jeff Heisel.
• [00:26] An excerpt from a song sets a reflective tone, hinting at Jeff’s long journey.
• [00:48] Jeff had diverse experiences, including studio recording at University of Hawaii Maui College.
• [01:16] Jason reminisces about first meeting Jeff decades ago during an open mic at Casanova’s, where Jeff performed a magic act with his wife.
• [01:44] Over the years, Jason knew Jeff casually, including through the Mankind Project, a men’s personal growth group, and other community initiatives like Boys to Men.
• [02:11] They discuss the significance of these groups in fostering personal responsibility and self-improvement.
• [02:54] Jeff is also involved with the Maui Humane Society and writes songs, which will be featured later in the show.
• [03:36] Jason recalls their first meeting 20-30 years ago and sets up the story of Jeff’s spiritual journey.
• [04:20] The conversation pivots to Jeff’s pivotal trip to India in 1976 at age 24, setting the stage for his involvement with Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh (later Osho).

1. 1. 1. 1. [04:20 → 16:43] Jeff’s Journey to India and Life at the Ashram

• [04:37] Jeff explains how the Netflix series “Wild Wild Country” tells one side of the story about Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh’s community in Oregon, focusing on scandal and controversy.
• [05:25] Jeff expresses his desire to share the human and spiritual experience behind the headlines, describing it as one of the best times of his life.
• [06:07] Many followers took on new spiritual names, including Jeff, who became Nagama.
• [06:48] Jeff recounts dropping out of college, hitchhiking, and discovering Ram Dass’s book Be Here Now, which ignited his interest in spirituality and India.
• [07:53] After a difficult period in his personal life, Jeff found a magazine about Bhagwan’s ashram that combined Western therapy with meditation, prompting Jeff and his girlfriend to visit Pune, India.
• [09:00] Jeff describes the ashram’s beauty, the vibrant orange robes, and the welcoming atmosphere as entering a colorful new world.
• [09:55] He explains the meaning of Bhagwan (a spiritual leader) and the concept of an ashram—a spiritual community.
• [11:17] The followers, called sannyasins, traditionally renounced worldly life, but Bhagwan’s “new vision” combined enjoying life’s pleasures (Zorba the Greek) with spiritual depth (Buddha), coining the term Zorba the Buddha.
• [12:36] Jeff paints a vivid picture of daily life at the ashram: morning discourses by Bhagwan, which were poetic and mind-expanding, and a community that embraced both spirituality and the joy of living.
• [13:30] Sexuality was embraced as a natural, spiritual energy rather than repressed, a concept new and liberating to Jeff at 24.
• [14:16] The ashram offered meditation, yoga, therapy groups, and encounter groups, blending Eastern spirituality with Western psychological methods.
• [14:56] During his first interview with Bhagwan, Jeff was advised to commit fully despite doubts, leading to his initiation as a sannyasin, receiving a mala necklace and a new name, which brought him an overwhelming sense of “coming home.”
• [15:47] Jeff stayed on at the ashram, assigned kitchen and bakery work, and lived among a diverse community of thousands, including surgeons, scientists, and businesspeople, all equal in their spiritual seeking.
• [17:14] The ashram was a place of joy and spiritual aspiration, where people sought enlightenment and living in the moment.
• [18:20] Jeff addresses the open sexuality at the ashram, emphasizing it was natural and voluntary, not mandatory, and part of the broader philosophy of being oneself free of judgment.
• [19:45] The community included medical professionals who provided care, and the ashram lasted in Pune from 1975 to 1981.

1. 1. 1. 1. [20:27 → 24:37] Building the Oregon Commune and External Conflicts

• [20:27] In 1981, the community moved to Oregon, where they began building a large city on 100 square miles of land, starting from one farmhouse and growing to thousands of members.
• [21:40] Tensions arose with local residents as the community’s rapid growth and distinct lifestyle caused fear and suspicion.
• [22:10] The local county began withholding building permits, trying to block the community’s expansion.
• [22:57] In response, the community bought up the small adjacent town of Antelope to gain voting control and circumvent permit issues, escalating tensions and becoming a scandal covered in “Wild Wild Country.”
• [23:47] Despite repression, the community’s vision was to create a cooperative, loving city that could serve as a model for the world, blending heart-centered living with practical cooperation.
• [24:37] Jason shifts the conversation, preparing to play one of Jeff’s songs.

1. 1. 1. 1. [24:37 → 29:03] Jeff’s Song “Sniffin’ Safari” and Transition to Mankind Project

• [25:01] Jeff performs and discusses “Sniffin’ Safari,” a playful song about a dog’s experience, linked to his volunteer work at the Maui Humane Society.
• [26:08] Jason and Jeff discuss the importance of wisdom from experience and mention the Mankind Project, which they plan to explore after the break.
• [26:33] Jason acknowledges show sponsors and community resources, including Akaku’s Open Mic service and other local programs.
• [29:03] The show returns from break, and they resume discussion of Jeff’s experiences with Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh.

1. 1. 1. 1. [29:03 → 36:02] Bhagwan’s Teachings, Community Life, and Scandals

• [29:23] Jeff explains the transition from the name Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh to simply Osho, a simpler name without specific meaning, adopted after the Oregon period.
• [30:06] Osho’s daily discourses covered a wide range of spiritual traditions and enlightened masters, including Jesus, Lao Tzu, Buddha, Rumi, Zen, and others, creating a unified spiritual approach.
• [30:56] Jeff asserts that followers maintained individuality and choice, countering the “cult” label often applied to the group.
• [31:22] Only a small inner circle was involved in criminal activities (poisonings, wiretapping) that Netflix’s documentary highlights; most followers were unaware and genuinely devoted to love and community.
• [32:14] Daily life included abundant food, dancing, music, and a joyful atmosphere embodying the Zorba the Buddha ideal.
• [32:58] Open sexuality brought challenges such as jealousy, but these were addressed through therapy and open communication, emphasizing love and growth.
• [33:51] The community’s outreach to homeless people was part of Osho’s vision to create an inclusive society, resulting in thousands being brought into the ranch from food lines across the U.S.
• [35:38] Jeff shares a moving story of a homeless man who thanked him for changing his life by inviting him to join the community.
• [36:02] Jeff invites viewers to watch Wild Wild Country but encourages them to understand the fuller, positive side of the community’s story.

1. 1. 1. 1. [36:02 → 40:48] Returning to Maui, Healing Past Wounds, and Embracing Dogs

• [36:31] After the ranch ended in 1986, Jeff moved to Maui with no money, facing negative childhood beliefs about self-worth inherited from family trauma.
• [37:26] He describes how these subconscious voices limited his relationships and career ambitions.
• [38:03] Jeff found healing through psychotherapy aimed at uncovering and resolving early trauma, which eventually led him to the Mankind Project six years prior to the interview.
• [38:32] He recounts his initial experience at a men’s group meeting, feeling heard and supported, leading to participation in the New Warrior Training weekend, which Jason also completed.
• [39:47] Through these groups, Jeff has experienced profound healing, gaining confidence and comfort in his identity, leading to a more joyful and fun life.
• [40:04] He describes a new source of joy: volunteering with shelter dogs, introduced to him by his wife, which provides an experience of pure, present-moment love and play.

1. 1. 1. 1. [40:48 → 47:41] Dog Songs, Fundraising, and Upcoming Community Events

• [41:10] Jeff explains the origin of his dog-related songs, starting from a shelter fundraiser sleepover where he performed a parody of “Shallow” called “Shelter,” which has gathered significant online attention.
• [42:42] He is working on a CD of dog songs to raise funds for the Maui Humane Society.
• [43:23] Upcoming events include the Mankind Project’s New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA) in early March and the Maui Humane Society’s “Slumber Party” fundraiser.
• [46:49] Jeff describes the New Warrior Training process, which includes adopting a personal “warrior” name representing strength and character; his chosen name is The Strength of the Bison.
• [47:15] He also describes the humane society’s sleepover event where volunteers sleep overnight with shelter dogs, creating bonds and raising awareness.
• [47:41] Jeff recounts his special connection with a pit bull at the shelter who was adopted soon after the event.

1. 1. 1. 1. [48:04 → 55:00] Life in Maui, Mentoring, and Reflections on Aging

• [48:04] Jeff has lived in Maui for 33 years, continuously seeking happiness and contentment through various life stages.
• [48:57] He embraces aging with enthusiasm, feeling youthful and energized, and sees value in connecting younger and older generations.
• [49:20] Jeff is also involved with Boys to Men, a mentoring program on Maui that supports boys by offering positive male role models outside of family or school authority figures.
• [50:41] Sharing experiences of bullying and vulnerability is part of the mentoring process, encouraging openness and authenticity.
• [51:09] Jason notes the depth of topics discussed and suggests playing another dog song as a lighthearted conclusion.

1. 1. 1. 1. [51:32 → 56:36] Dog Song “I Am a Retriever” and Final Thoughts

• [51:32] Jeff performs “I Am a Retriever,” a playful and heartfelt song about a dog’s transformation from loneliness to joy in play and love.
• [54:26] The conversation returns to Jeff’s affection for pit bulls, highlighting their gentle nature despite their intimidating reputation.
• [55:00] Jeff urges viewers to experience the transformative love dogs provide and invites men to participate in Mankind Project activities.
• [55:49] Contact details for Jeff (DogsongsMaui@yahoo.com) and the Mankind Project (mkp.org) are shared.
• [56:07] Jason reminds listeners that the show is available online at MauiNeutralZone.com and on YouTube, encouraging sharing and continued engagement.
• [56:36] Jeff sends a heartfelt shout-out to his wife Madeira and a friend named Jimmy, closing the show on a warm, personal note.

1. 1. 1. Key Insights

• Jeff Heisel’s life journey reflects a deep search for meaning, beginning with spiritual exploration in India and evolving into community service and personal healing in Maui.
• The Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh/Osho community was a complex mix of spirituality, openness, and controversy, with many participants unaware of the darker inner circle scandals.
• The philosophy of Zorba the Buddha encapsulated the ideal balance of joyful living and spiritual depth.
• Healing from childhood trauma and negative self-beliefs is a lifelong process, supported by groups like the Mankind Project that foster male emotional fluency and authenticity.
• Volunteering, especially with animals, provides a unique, grounding experience of unconditional love and presence.
• Community involvement—whether through men’s groups, mentoring youth, or animal shelters—is a powerful way to improve oneself and contribute to the world.
  • • .
    • Resources Mentioned
• Mankind Project: mkp.org
• Maui Humane Society: mauihumanesociety.org (implied)
• Jeff Heisel Contact: DogsongsMaui@yahoo.com
• Show Website: MauiNeutralZone.com
• Radio Station: KAKU 88.5 FM

This detailed summary captures the essence of Jeff Heisel’s experiences and insights shared on “The Neutral Zone,” structured faithfully according to the original transcript’s flow and timestamps.

Transcript

00:00

Good morning, it’s 11 o’clock on Monday. I’m Jason Schwartz, your host. This is the Neutral Zone. We have a great show today with Jeff Heisel. So hang on in, we’ll be right starting. Please allow me to introduce

00:26

I’m a man of wealth and taste I’ve been around for a long, long year So many men sold away And I was round when Jesus Christ Had his moment of doubt and faith

00:48

That sounds a lot like me. That is me. At UHMC, University of Hawaii, Maui College, you can take all kinds of things. And one of them was, I believe, a studio recording. So, if you make it, that’s all.

01:16

Aloha, this is Monday morning, the first Monday morning of 2020. I hope that this year, 2020, our sights are very clear. We’ve been talking about it a long time. I can’t believe we’re in 2020. I have Jeff Heisel with me today. Some of you know him from many, many years ago. When I first met him, he was with his wife and he was standing on stage

01:44

doing an act. He’ll tell you about that. And then the next time I met him, he was, you know, and I knew him over the years, like we’d wave, me and Ariel would wave at Nagama and Madeer, walking down the… And then I met him again in a group of men. I went to something called Mankind Project. I’m sure we’ll talk about that a little, maybe more. And Boys to Men, all kinds of things. These are projects…

02:11

To be continued. And then he was Jeff Heisel. I thought Jeff was his given name. Nagama was the name because he was involved in some group. You met me as Nagama. Yeah. I remember. And then as time gone on, and it’s now been a year and a half maybe, I’m involved with this Mankind group. You should check the Mankind project out. Anyway, and I find that I’m getting guests for the show

02:36

coming out of our group. You know, great people and people that have contribution to making things better. And that’s what this group is really about, about improving yourself and your responsibility to yourself and to the world and just a really great thing.

02:54

But here is another great man. I was like, what? Look at that. And when I first thought of Jeff Heisel, again, I was thinking about Jeff Heisel because he’s involved with the Maui Humane Society. In fact, very soon we’re going to play a song for you or two.

03:10

Even a live cut. Jeff writes songs. I’m not letting him talk, but you can jump in anytime because I’m a talking machine. You’re doing good. Welcome to the show. You’re bringing back memories. I remember that first show when I met you. I was hosting an open mic at Casanova with my wife. We were doing like a magician act.

03:36

And you came on to participate in the open mic in the very first one. So I really appreciated that, that somebody showed up. And so that was at least 20, maybe 30 years ago. Isn’t that amazing? So we have a lot to talk about. 30 years. So 30 years ago, Nagama and Medeir were doing a magic act in Casanova’s.

And we met. And over the years, you know, we stay in touch, we wave. I know he had a house in Kihei and things were going on, but we didn’t really stay that close. But what a great guy. Wait till you hear his story. But the thing that we got on here today that initially sparked this show was…

04:20

You can talk with me. In 19-whatever, what time did you go? Well, 76, 1976, 24 years old, I went to India. He went to India. But you guys in the States know about Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh.

04:37

Also known as Osho now. Osho. So you’re going to hear… You know, there’s a thing on Netflix right now. It’s like a six-part series called Wild Wild Country. So all you zillions of people that have Netflix, you can watch that and see one view of what happened at the ranch in Oregon and India and the whole thing around Bhagwan Rajneesh and…

05:08

I guess you’d say his inner circle, but it was the whole thing. Yeah, and it’s a well-done documentary, and it’s very interesting. It’s exciting because it focuses on scandalous stuff that was going on and kind of the meltdown at the end of it.

05:25

So it’s very entertaining. Why I’m happy to be here is because what the documentary didn’t do is find out from people like me that lived there why we were there, what we liked about it, what we got from it.

05:41

that helped our lives. And so that’s why I’m super happy to be here with you today and just share some of that. Because I still reminisce with friends from that time. And most all of us say that was really almost the best time of our lives. I’ve heard that, you know, when I got to Maui in 1988,

06:07

I would meet people and they’d say, oh, hi, my name’s Ed. Well, formerly it was this. Or I met someone and they’d say, my name’s Nikhil Ananda.

06:19

Wow. What kind of name is that? What kind of name is that? Oh, well, my given name was, I don’t know, you know, spreading real names. But the truth is, they’re all real names. And he had gone through a process. You as well, Nagama wasn’t your given name. You were Jeff, right? So I was Jeff when I went to India, 24. Once you decide to stay there and be with Bhagwan. What made you go to India?

06:48

Well, OK, so

06:50

You know, I kind of see my whole life as this gradual evolution of a man. And I would say that seed started when I was maybe 22, hitchhiking around the country. I had recently dropped out of college to find myself. I was kind of lost, and I stumbled upon Be Here Now, the book of Ram Dass, which is timely because he just passed away. Yes.

07:20

last week and that was pivotal in my life to read that it just made so much sense and basically that book was about him finding his guru and living in india and then he brought all those stories back and turned on the west

07:40

to that world. And so then for a few years, I got into following that yoga meditation. And then that led to going to India. And I found a guru in mind.

07:53

Well, I did. Actually, the story that I actually got there is pretty interesting. But I was just at the time with a girlfriend, a new baby. But we were kind of miserable. We were struggling and fighting. And it was really almost a dark night of the soul for me. And we…

08:20

started to do some couples therapy. And in that office, there was a magazine coming from India from Bhagwan’s ashram. It has his picture. And it said, Guru…

08:38

uses Western therapy in his ashram along with meditation. And that really struck me. So then with my girlfriend, we all decided we started the journey, went to India to Pune, which was his ashram there. And I mean, I can remember walking through the gates and

09:00

So the thing that hits you first is it’s magnificently beautiful. All the buildings are marble and…

09:08

And the grounds, everything is well kept. And there’s all these people in orange robes working everywhere and hustling around, doing different jobs and keeping the place beautiful, sweeping, doing the gardening. And many of them, you would see couples just hugging. And it was just like walking into a new world.

09:32

Do you ever see, there’s movies around, one with colors, where you walk in and suddenly the colors get brighter and things just seem magnificent. It was like coming out of a black and white world into this color. And there were so many secrets for me to discover there. And I was going…

09:55

kind of skeptical, you know, like, I’m not sure if I’m going to like this. So one of the first things you do, you make an appointment for an interview with Bhagwan. What does Bhagwan mean? So Bhagwan kind of means…

10:14

It’s a title to a spiritual leader. As Sri? Bhagwan Sri. I’m not sure what that means, but the Bhagwan Sri are titles. Rajneesh is his last name. I see.

10:31

His name was Mohan Chandra Rajneesh, something like that. So we in the West, what’s an ashram? We’re just trying to give people an orientation. So an ashram is just a community-focused function.

10:47

on spirituality. Okay, so you went to, I want to say a church, but let’s say a spiritual community in the middle of a city in India, and you met this guy, and here he is, Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, you sit with an interview, and what happened at that interview? So the amazing thing there is that he’s, so the word sannyas, so the followers of him are called sannyasins,

11:17

In India, a sannyasin is a traditional seeker, usually ascetic. They give up worldly things and they just sit on the side of the road meditating. So Bhagwan’s view, his new vision, which really turned me on, was that to be spiritual, you don’t need to give up anything.

11:43

And as a matter of fact, his vision of what he called the new man was going to be a combination of Zorba the Greek, who squeezed the juice out of life, dancing, women, wine. Thank you, Anthony Quinn, for giving us that image. I can still remember him dancing. And Buddha, who sits magnificently on the mountaintop in silence,

12:09

So he’s saying Buddha is beautiful, but he’s dry, he’s missing something. And the Zorba is so juicy, enjoying life, but he’s missing this realm of mystery and religiousness. So his vision, he coined the term Zorba the Buddha. And so that was all our aspirations.

12:36

And so, yeah, I’d like to give you a picture of this ashram because so you come in, it’s beautiful. The people are beautiful. The women are beautiful. And then he’s very photogenic and looks beautiful. And he would give talks every morning, two hour discourses. Two hour. And they would blow your mind. They were so beautiful. He’s so poetic.

13:04

And so he’s talking of his vision. And part of his vision, enjoying life, is enjoying energy. Don’t repress anything. Now I’m 24, you know, and a big part of my life is trying to find how to have sex and have girlfriends. And I’m coming from a conditioning that women don’t want sex. And it’s all a weird thing.

13:30

mindset. So coming in here, all of a sudden I’m hearing his teachings of that energy is given to enjoy. And so sexuality just became kind of like a spiritual thing. And one of his main teachings is go with the flow, to trust in life, trust where your energy is taking you.

13:55

So they had meditation. They had yoga. But they also had therapy groups. They did encounter groups there. So it was full of kind of new age stuff that people were getting turned on to. And I’m meeting people in a new way.

14:16

Now, I was talking about getting my new name. So the first interview with him, he says, do you plan to stay here? And I’m like, well, I don’t know. I’m here looking, I’m judging, I’m figuring it out. You know, I don’t have the feeling yet.

14:33

And so he speaks so beautiful, and he told me rightly that there’s some things in life you can’t know until you do it or until you jump in. You can sit on the side studying how to ride a bike, reading a book or something, but you cannot know that until you get on a bike.

14:56

and so i said so are you telling me i should become a sannyasin even though i have all these doubts and he said yes and i went there with an open mind to follow him for a month because again i was lost at that time so i said okay

15:14

And as soon as he gives you a mala, which is a beaded necklace with his picture on it, he puts that over my neck, and he puts his thumb on my third eye, and he gives me my new name. And as soon as he did that, I just cried. I cried, and I had the feeling of coming home.

15:37

I had the feeling of coming over, and from that moment forward, I just did not have any doubts, any anything. I was home.

15:47

And so you stayed there in India. Accommodation was made. Are you working? Yeah. So when you live there, many people would come and go. They had jobs in the West. I wasn’t planning to stay, but then that all happened. And I decided, hey, I don’t want to go anyplace else. I want to live here forever.

16:10

So the next thing you do, well, right in the beginning, he advises you to do a few therapy groups or meditation groups. But then when you’re really going to live there, they assign you some work. So my work was in the kitchen.

16:27

And the bakery. So for years, I worked in the kitchen. So some of the fun there is you’re sitting there cutting vegetables. And there was about, when I first got there, there was about 600 people and that grew to a few thousand in India.

16:43

So there’s many people you don’t know. So you’d be sitting next to somebody cutting vegetables, and you’re like, you know, who are you? What’s your background, you know? And so often it would be, well, I’m a surgeon, or I’m a scientist, or I’m successful business. You know, there was all these amazing people, educated, very smart, wealthy.

17:14

But everybody was on an equal playing field, kind of. I didn’t feel inferior because he’s here also because he’s lost. He’s also here trying to better himself and maybe become this term enlightenment, right? This idea that you can get out of your head and if you can live in the moment…

17:39

things become blissful and joyful. And so everybody’s there looking up to Osho. So you’d feel equal with these.

17:50

Yeah. It was quite an experience, and you lived there, and it was a great community. When I watched that Netflix documentary, I got the feeling like, you know, sex was liberal and was the subject of the day, and they squeezed in a life. Did you feel that? Yeah. So the thing about sex, yeah, because that’s, you know, because it’s controversial, so much of the press pick up on that.

18:20

So it was encouraged not to repress your sexuality. And so women became more free. And so it was very common to, for example, sitting next to somebody cutting vegetables, a beautiful woman, and you’d feel some energy coming

18:47

You know, at that age, it was sexual energy. You feel attracted. And so it was very common to just say, hey, you know, would you like to come to my room? And I was living there, so my room was 100 yards away. And so sex was…

19:04

common and frequent it wasn’t uh it wasn’t required there were many people there what was what was encouraged was to be yourself be natural so many people weren’t into sex many people just meditated all day they worked silently meditatively

19:24

And some people were into sex. So it wasn’t that everybody was into sex. It was just there and it would happen naturally. So, again, it became part of life, not focused and separated and judged, which is so often what here in the West we live under a bunch of rules.

19:45

Judgements coming from everywhere. What is right? What is wrong? Way to do it. So all these great people with all kinds of skills are now working in a community. Did that surgeon ever do surgery? Yes, actually, yes. So that grew to have a medical center. And so, yeah, so the doctors, surgeons would be there.

20:12

And then that was towards the end of Puna. So Puna lasted about five years, from 75 to 81, six years. I got there in 76. In 81, that’s when it shifted over to Oregon. I see.

20:27

And in Oregon, that’s where we really were building a city. And so we had a medical center there, a hospital, actually. And we had restaurants and cafeterias. And we built it all. How many acres? Tons? 80,000? Well, it was 100 square miles. Oh, boy. So it was 10 miles by 10 miles. So it was huge, as far as the eye could see. And the only thing on that place was one old farmhouse when we bought it.

20:56

So 10 people were the first ones to move there. They built a second house. 10 more people came. Now they built two more houses. Is that how it did? And it just grew from that. It grew from an initial group of like 10, 15 people. Well, I got there. So that was like August of 81. I got there December of that year. And there was about 400 people maybe at that time.

21:24

And it just was growing. We were building, building, building. Did you have much interaction with the community and the people outside the ashram? Well, see, that’s part of the scandal, and that’s part of what shows up on Wild Wild Country. That’s why I’m wondering. Because… Now…

21:40

know that this 100 square miles is like 30 miles away from, well, this town of Antelope that’s in the documentary. There’s nobody around. And we’re doing our thing, but we’re all dressed in orange and red. And here’s this guru with the Rolls Royce. And so the people in Oregon started to get very worried and scared. And so all the building we’re doing,

22:10

requires building permits from the county which we would get but when there came a point where they were like hey we don’t know what’s going on there we hear rumors and this so they started to hold back building permits

22:28

they started to try to shut us down. And so when the scandal started, so what happened is, okay, so Sheila is the main character in Wild Wild Country. She was sort of running the ranch under Osho. She had an inner group, and their job was to just make sure everything ran smoothly. And so they start thinking, well, how can we get around this building permit problem?

22:57

So what they did, so this town of Antelope, there’s maybe 70 residents. Small. Yeah, yeah, it was a tiny little town, just one little street. They were holding up building permits. So we, the ranch, bought up. There was a lot of houses for sale. So we bought up all those houses and put people in there. So now we have the majority of residents.

23:27

And so now we’re allowing us to get building permits. So we’re continuing on. But now that became a scandal. And so then other groups in Oregon came and tried to stop us. And so we were struggling. We were being very much repressed and blocked in Oregon.

23:47

Doing this vision. Our vision was to create… And you guys up there at your ranch, you were creating a new community as an example to the world. Yeah, it was going to be an example to the world. What could be if cooperation can happen and things… Yeah. Which is now what we all really want to do, being that example to the world. It’s really what everybody… At each time. Yeah, what everybody wants. Coming from the heart rather than only the head. Yeah. Being genuine, caring about others. Yeah.

24:15

No, it was a beautiful vision. Beautiful vision, well-lived, and now you have people that are afraid of what you’re doing. I’m seeing we’re almost three minutes to the break, two and a half. I’m going to change subjects for a minute. We’re going to come back to it, but I’m going to play a song. Well, I’ll let you. You’ll probably recognize the melody, but…

24:37

Get out there and start sniffing.

25:01

Come on, join our sniffin’ safari. If you’ve come, you won’t be sorry. Grab your leash, you’d better hurry. Come on, join our sniffin’ safari. Let’s go sniffin’ now, every human’s missin’ out. Come on, let’s safari with me. Come on, let’s safari with me. Where so many smells can be found. An old crowd that didn’t shadow me.

25:31

Okay, so an easy one is DogSongsMaui. DogSongsMaui. That’s Yahoo.com. Thank you.

25:47

Yeah, so they can go to Maui or Maui Humane Society. Special word, put in sniff and safari. See, that’s very funny. You can do that. In this new world we live in, when you and I were, I want to say in our prime, I’m still in my prime.

26:08

Yeah. Remember that. Old people are not gone and history. We got a lot of stuff going on. There might be some wisdom left around. You know, that brings up Mankind Project. Yeah. We’re going to jump into that after the break. I’m going to let our sponsors jump in. See, this is a show. We need an hour and a half show, but we’ll be right back. Hang on.

26:33

The Neutral Zone, with me, Jason Schwartz, would like to thank Maui Arts and Music Association, Dream Makers Foundation of Maui, for their support. Since 1991, with hundreds of television shows and their mauiartsandmusic.com website, they have championed self-sustainability on Maui. The Neutral Zone is heard live Mondays at 11 a.m. and replayed Saturday at 7 a.m. on KAKU 88.5 FM, the voice of Maui.

27:03

Do you have something to say but can’t find an outlet? Did you know that Akaku offers a service called Open Mic? Here, you can come in and make a statement on any topic you want, and it’s free. Play a song you wrote, recite a monologue, do a funny dance, comment on a recent event. The floor is yours. Come speak your mind for free. Appointments are available Mondays and Wednesdays between 1 and 3. Call 871-5554 today to reserve your spot.

27:34

The holidays are fun, but they’re also stressful. But don’t despair. Science can help make the holidays a little brighter. From animal gift-giving tips to embracing pessimism at parties to stopping that annoying merry melody that’s in an endless loop in your head. It’s Handling the Holidays on the next Big Picture Science.

28:03

AdoptUS Kids presents What to Expect When You’re Expecting. A teenager learning the lingo. Jelly. Jelly adjective. Jelly is a shorter, better way to say jealous. As in, Chloe, I am like so jelly of your unicorn phone case.

28:19

You don’t have to speak teen to be a perfect parent. Thousands of teens in foster care will love you just the same. Visit adoptuskids.org. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, AdoptUSKids, and the Ad Council. Hi, I’m Jason Schwartz, host of The Neutral Zone. KAKU is a listener-supported station.

28:38

This means that all the great programs you hear, like mine, are sponsored by you as well as our underwriters. If you would like to help keep The Voice of Maui talking loud and clear, go to kakufm.org slash donate today and give. And don’t miss The Neutral Zone Mondays at 11 a.m. on 88.5 FM, The Voice of Maui.

29:03

We are back. This is The Neutral Zone. I’m Jason Schwartz. I’m here with Jeff Heisel. Jeff and I are talking about his time up at the ranch in Oregon with Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh. Why do they call him Osho? There was a time…

29:23

I don’t think it was on the ranch. I think it was after the ranch. He went back to the ashram in India and just one day announced that he’s dropping the Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh and wants to be called Osho. Which is a simple name like teaching. Yeah, it kind of… It doesn’t really mean anything specifically. I think there was some Japanese person suggested that name. Maybe it’s got something to do with ocean.

29:53

I don’t really know, but then it became Osho. So all those discourses. So he spoke two hours every day, and it was structured. So he would speak on other…

30:06

Enlightened masters through the centuries. For example, I made a list of a few, but there’s hundreds. Chantazu Lao Tzu. Jesus, to him, is considered just an enlightened human being. Rinzai, Bodhidharma, Buddha, Rumi. And he spoke on Taoism, Sufism, Buddhism, Zen. I like to think of it as that’s like Unity Church now. All the different…

30:32

Yeah. Modalities in one place. So it was you who were looking for knowledge, were getting it processed through a teacher. Did you feel you had your own choice and individuality? Totally. Was it a cult in that old feeling of cult? See, that’s the misconception. That’s why I’m bringing it up. That’s exactly right. Because I like blowing up misconceptions. Yeah.

30:56

Well, this one… Was it? I’ve met people here on the island. They all are so very different. Yeah. But they were all Sinyasins. And they were there. My lady friend, Ariel, went up to visit for a few days or a week. Oh, she did. She didn’t want to see the video on Netflix because it’ll break an incredible dream and an experience that was so rich and so powerful to her just from visiting. Yeah.

31:22

And the other main point there is that, so on the ranch, there was like a couple thousand people toward the end living there. And the stuff that was going on that Netflix highlights, which gets incredible, it gets into poisonings and wiretapping. You know, there’s some big stuff going on. So the thing to know is that

31:49

Okay, if there’s 2,000 people, 1,990 had no idea that that was going on. There was that inner circle. Their intentions was just to allow the city to keep growing. But yeah, they did some pretty bad stuff. But the rest of us were blissfully unaware, working out of love. So you’re working with your friends every day and having fun.

32:14

At mealtimes you go, there’s a great cafeteria with the buffet spread of all kinds of food. Because remember, this is Zorba the Buddha is the ideal. So we were eating well. In the evening, there was a bar discotheque. There was a nightclub we built. So people are dancing and musicians. What a wonderful life that is. We had fun.

32:37

And everything was sharing and abundance and cooperation. Were there any problems that seemed you couldn’t? Were there relationship growth as people having sex in an unusual way? Well, see, built into that, built into that open sexuality is…

32:58

jealousies come up because you’re with a woman and you’re in love and a few nights or a week you’re together every night and then all of a sudden she sleeps with somebody else. So it was a big school of learning and dealing with these normal things that come up and turn your life upside down.

33:25

And so that was very common. Yeah, the jealousy thing was something probably everybody had to deal with there. And it would get dealt with. There was therapists. If you wanted to talk to somebody, there was help that you could do. But it was mostly just love that carried the day. What happened when suddenly, I’m going back to the Netflix thing, only because I’m trying to play off that.

33:51

People are coming from all over the country that were homeless that suddenly arrived there. Right, so that was a big one too. So to us, to the naive worker bees, I say that affectionately because I loved working there.

34:09

But it was presented to us that this is part of Osho’s vision. We’re going to bring in these homeless and give them a home and give them a job and bring them into our community. And it was like a wild idea, but…

34:26

You know, Osho through the years always was doing something wild and it would always end up beautiful. So we were all for it. And I was actually sent out on a crew, went down to San Diego and they had Greyhound buses. They leased a whole bunch of buses across the country and we’d go to the food lines and.

34:46

Talk to these people and say, hey, if you want, there’s a community up here and we’re happy to take you up and you can try it out. We feed you. We have medical. We will clothe you, whatever you need. A portion of people that came up. And so.

35:04

Maybe 1,000 people came up, maybe more, but there was a lot. And they were coming off the streets, so there were some issues. But there was also some incredible, beautiful stories. Because after that all, you’ll see in the wild, wild country what the real reason for that was.

35:23

But after all the homeless left, I’m standing in line one day and the guy in front of me, who’s now dressed in orange also, he turns and says, you might not remember me, but you changed my life.

35:38

I was in San Diego on the food line, and you talked to me and invited me on the bus. And you changed my life. Now I’m here living. I’m working. I’ve got skills. I can never thank you enough. So that knocked me over. So there were some good things that came out of that also.

36:02

But I’d like to segue. Okay, so everybody watch Wild Wild Country and know that there’s another side. But I’m segueing into, because part of that was, like I said before, when I was 24, lost, looking for myself. And so I came into this and it opened up a lot of things and I learned a lot of things. But when the ranch ended in 86 and everybody went out into the world, that’s when I came to Maui,

36:31

And there was actually a few hundred of these sannyasins came to Maui. But I came to Maui, and I’m starting over. I had no money. I had to find work. And these voices. So this is something in psychotherapy they call childhood imprints. Negative beliefs you take on when you’re too young to logically rationalize.

36:57

my father divorced my mother and left when i was four they were fighting for a year before that the belief i took on was it’s my fault i’m no good i’m not lovable he doesn’t want to be with me so i took that on and it goes into the subconscious so i’m not aware of it anymore but i go through my life and i see it come up at different times that that holds me back

37:26

I’m not worthy. I’m not good enough. So those voices would hold me back from really going for what I want in relationships and jobs and careers. So when I came back after 86 and I’m in Maui, those voices came really strong.

37:46

And I didn’t know what to do with them. But I stumbled into a psychotherapy that dealt with that. They would go back to early traumas, early moments. I started to get understanding about how I took that on and how it’s holding me back.

38:03

And then that led me into the Mankind Project six years ago. I stumbled into it. I didn’t know any of the men. I heard of this men’s group. I went to one open night. Here’s a room with 24 men sitting in a circle, and I didn’t know any of them. I was like, wow, okay. And then they proceeded to do their formatted group, check-in rounds, how are you doing, sharing deeper and deeper.

38:32

Until men are really laying it out there, the struggles they’re having, the things that’s keeping them from being the man they want to be. And I started to lay mine out. And I’m being heard, I’m being seen, I’m being appreciated. It was just powerful. Came back the next week, powerful again. And some of the men there impressed me very much. They tell me, hey, the next weekend, there’s our weekend new warrior training. I did that too.

39:02

Jason did that, too, a few years after me. And there’s one coming up in March. And I’m going to recommend that to every man out there because I think every man can get a lot out of it. So I’ve been sitting in the group for six years and in the group.

39:18

It deals with those issues. So when those voices are coming, you can talk to the group about it. And they have some processes to help you see it and understand it and get some healing around it. And so over these last 10 years, I’ve been doing that and getting healing that I really can feel is changing me, giving me more ease, giving me more comfort in my own skin.

39:47

Those voices of I’m not good enough, I’m not worthy are fading into the distance. I’m feeling like, well, basically I’m feeling like I am somebody and people can enjoy me. That’s new for me. So my life has become more fun.

40:04

More enjoyable. So when you say you’re still in your prime, I’m really feeling that too. I’m in my prime. I’m having fun. I’m enjoying connecting with new people. And I’m really enjoying one of the new things the last couple of years with my wife is volunteering with the dogs at the shelter. And that…

40:25

For me, what’s new, my wife introduced me to dogs, the world of dogs, the world of doggy love, that love where you get out of your head and you’re just in the moment, playing, running, chasing a ball, wrestling. That joy gets me out of my head for the few hours twice a week that I go there. And so I’m just loving them.

40:48

Now, Sniffin’ Safari, I bet you’ve had personal experience with that. Well, those songs, so right now I’ve got about eight songs, dog songs recorded, and I’m bringing that up to ten. And I’m hoping to put out a CD and sell it at the shelter as a fundraiser. But those dog songs started because last March,

41:10

They had a sleepover event, a fundraiser at the Maui Humane Society, which I volunteered for. So I slept in a kennel, in a kennel with one of these pit bull kennel dogs, shelter dogs.

41:25

And so there was 14 of us. Each slept overnight from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. And one of the things I did, because people were doing different things to get donations. For example, if you donate $25, because it was live streamed. If you donate $25, I’ll eat a dog bone with my dog or a dog biscuit. Somebody did that. By the way, how is that? Have you tried the dog bone?

41:50

I haven’t. Oh, okay. No, no. What I did is… Don’t put a thing out there. If you hit a dog… Healthy dog moves, yeah. Okay. So what I did is I made up a dog song just before I went in. And so the dog song was a famous song, the song from Star is Born, Shallow. I changed the words, titled it Shelter, and it’s about a dog in a shelter.

42:13

And I sang that, and it went on YouTube, and it got like 100,000 hits. Holy moly. And all the response, everybody’s crying and loving it. So then I just started to think of more songs. Neil Diamond’s song, I am, I said. Well, mine is, I am a dog. You know, what’s dog for? So Sniffin’ Safari is one.

42:42

And so I’m loving it. So that fundraiser is coming around this March. Oh, yeah? So keep everybody out there. Keep your eyes posted. So give us the updates. Yes. It’s going to be March, somewhere beginning of March. It’s not when the Mankind Project thing. Well, it just reminds me, I’ve got to check that out if there’s a conflict.

43:03

But in early March, there are two great things happening. Mankind Project is having a, they call it New Warrior Training. New Warrior Training Adventure, NWTA. NWTA. So that’s something they can contact you about. Yeah. So actually that, you can go, here’s an easy website, mkp.org.

43:23

MKP.org. It stands for the Mankind Project. MKP.org, and you’ll find information about it, because it’s a national organization, international, really. There’s men’s groups all around the world. I met a man from Philadelphia, did an interview. In the middle of the interview, he’s talking about the Mankind Project that he started in 1991, and he works with the dead and the dying in hospitals and stuff. Fantastic. You’re going to find out there, people, that probably we have some people that were…

43:49

in from long, long ago here on Maui. They were probably in the same groups years ago. A group of men together with the intention to help make this a better world by making themselves better. Improving yourself. Having the ability to be there so that those that come after us can stand on our shoulders from a firm foundation. Yeah.

44:13

I don’t know if that’s the… And I like to say, wives, girlfriends, women out there, if there’s a guy in your life, push him to do this because he’s going to become a better husband, a better father, a better boyfriend, a better man. It’s interesting. When it was ended, we did like a graduation thing. And the comments from the women were the most telling. Comments from the women, yeah. Because they found their men to be…

44:41

More responsive. Still strong, but gentle. Listening. Things that…

44:49

Really, what do we say? Make a better world. Well, one of the things, for example, that you learn on this weekend is emotional fluency with feelings. Because it’s a common gripe of women, right? Or the man doesn’t know what he’s feeling. You don’t share your feelings. So this is getting in touch with those feelings and learning ways to express that to keep the connection with your partner.

45:17

And then there’s many other opportunities. Okay, it’s called the new warrior training, right? So the new warrior, the old warrior, strong, fighting, going to battle. No, the new warrior is the one that has the courage to look deep inside himself and see what’s getting in his way to be the best man he can be.

45:41

And just like you got a new name when you went to the ranch, we in the New Warrior Training get to come up with our own name. That’s right. I am Gentle and Peaceful Lion. Don’t mistake I’m a lion. But I don’t have to go out there roaring and killing. I have a different slant on how to do it. That’s what I’ve embraced. So mine is The Strength of the Bison. Okay.

46:06

On the weekend, one of the processes is kind of a vision quest process. You discover some animal or some spirit or something that can be a guide to you or a benefit to you. And I just saw this bison, this strong, solid bison.

46:28

And no matter what’s going on or what negative voices are in my head, I still go forward and do what I said I would do. That was quite a good experience. For all you men and women out there, check out Mankind Project, mkp.org. And there’s even a group for women. That’s something else besides, right? Yeah, Women Within, it’s kind of like a sister group.

46:49

I see. See, here on Maui, we have wonderful things going on, but these also happen around the world. So this is our Maui slant, mkp.org. So that’s early March, and then the dog, is it Dog-a-thon? It’s called, I think it’s called the Slumber Party, when they advertise it from the Maui Humane Society, the Slumber Party. Sleep with dogs. I’ve done that before. Did you? Well, different.

47:15

And if you’re a cat lover, they’re going to open up the cat house also so you can sleep with the cats also. Right in there. So you bring, like in the day, you bring in your bedding. I brought in, I had this plaid bathrobe and I brought in this plaid pajamas for the dog so we had matching sleepwear. And you decorate. Everybody decorates their kennels.

47:41

And I was worried because this was a big pit bull that I didn’t know too well. And he was a dog. When I played my song, he laid down on my feet and he rolled over and he just, it was beautiful. He fell asleep. And after four months he was there, he got adopted a week later. Isn’t that great? Very beautiful story.

48:04

That was a great experience. So all this came, it’s interesting how our lives unfold. So you’ve been here on Maui and doing… Yeah, 33 years. Wow. And really, I just feel like I’ve been seeking happiness, you know, just contentment. And that’s taken me through all these stages and taken me to where I am.

48:27

And, sure, that process is still going to continue. I’m excited about the future. I’m 68, but I still feel like a kid, and I’m excited to see what’s coming. You know, when I hear they always say, well, you know that 40 is the new 20. I say 70 is the new 40. Yeah. You know, the world is changing. When I see what’s going on with young people, because they’re going with the Internet, they have different skill set than we do.

48:57

But I think there needs to be a connect with an older, more rooted kind of different experience. So I’m not looking on retiring anytime soon. No, no. I’m busier than ever. I feel like I’m just doing things that I love. I’m also volunteering. It’s kind of an offshoot of the Mankind Project is Boys to Men.

49:20

It’s a mentoring project. Wonderful. That’s also across the country. We’ve got Dwayne Elliott on our show. Dwayne, yeah, he’s got it started in Maui. So we’ve got a group. Actually, tomorrow I sit. It’s in the Kihei Charter School, a group of about 15 boys and four men. And we do…

49:41

And we tell them that we’re not their teacher, we’re not their parent, that it’s different. We’re just here to honor you, to guide, not even to guide, just to be there and to listen to the boys, to encourage them to be themselves, to share and kind of honor them, praise them if there’s an opportunity.

50:05

to give them a different viewpoint. You know, the parents are always busy and yelling, and the teachers have to do their job. So we’re just being there as a positive model. I’d like to know more to become, you know, I don’t have any kids, but I bet I could…

50:24

being on that group. You’d be a great mentor. Yeah, because basically you’d share your truth. In some of the sharing rounds, you’ll share what it was like. We might ask the question in the sharing round, were you ever bullied?

50:41

and tell a little bit what happened. So when it gets to the men, it’s going to be the same question. Look in our lives, especially back when we were in school, if we felt bullied or something like that, and we share our stories. So it’s easy to do. The only requirement is just being yourself and being open and honest, being vulnerable. Well, there’s so much that we’re talking about here that could themselves be a show.

51:09

I see we’ve got about, oh, five and a half minutes left. I am thinking if I play a dog song now, it’ll gather you a few minutes to be able to realize in the last couple of minutes the kind of important things you might want to highlight and bring out. Okay. Does that sound all right? Sure, that sounds good. So let me just see what’s on my hit parade that I got here. Here we go.

51:32

Remember the Monkees? Yeah, that’s right. Who remembers Monkees? You guys now may not know. There was a group called the Monkees. On TV? There were four guys on TV that you said, well, those guys are a music group? Yeah. And they had a song called I’m a Believer written by Neil Diamond, of all people. Right, exactly. But this one is a little different. It’s called I Am a Retriever.

52:03

Thought I was only good for laying round Fun was meant for other dogs, not me Fun was out to get me Little did I know You were gonna show me who I am Then I saw the ball Now I’m a retriever

52:30

I love to chase. It gets me out of my mind. I like the music. I’m going to retrieve it. I couldn’t leave it if I tried. I used to think I’d spend my life tied to a tree. When I needed loving, I got chained.

53:00

I stopped believing. What’s the use in grieving? Didn’t think you even knew my name. Then I saw the ball. Now I’m a retriever. I love to chase. Gets me out of my mind. Just throw a ball. Get some

53:25

I’m going to retrieve it. I couldn’t leave it if I tried. Any ideas? Anyone want to be involved? We’re going to give information for Jeff up here, too.

53:38

Well, you know, that is a song that goes on. I’m a retriever. I’m a retriever. And other songs that you’ve got, I thought I was only good for laying around. Fun was meant for other dogs, not me. But fun was out to get me. Little did I know we were going to show me who I am.

53:57

Then I saw the ball. Now I’m a retriever. You’re so fun. It’s fun, I tell you. Very fun. And the most important thing is you’re doing help for, I don’t know, I love cats, but I love dogs. I’ve been in trouble with dogs. When you rescue them or you see them, I mean, some of them come in there so rough and they’ve had such a tough life. A pit bull puppy. I really, you know…

54:26

We’re going to have a little fun. Actually, I was afraid of pit bulls in the beginning, but I’ve come to just love them more than any other kind of dog. They’re so sweet, and they’re big, and they’re big head.

54:43

But, man, when they love you and play, they are the sweetest, biggest heart. I used to go see some people in Kihei. They had three or four pit bulls. And they would lick me to death. I couldn’t stop them from licking me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I have good salt.

55:00

We got a minute and a half. I know I’m cutting in a little time. Yeah, a couple things. One is, yeah, dogs, I’m just crazy about them. If you don’t know the benefit of dogs, it changes your life. It fills your house with love. Go down, take a look at the Humane Society, adopt a dog. It’ll change your life. And the other thing, yeah, the men’s group, the mensweekendmkp.org,

55:29

Any man, no matter what, no matter how successful, can get something really vital for his life there. And so you can reach me, DogsongsMaui. You can write me personal emails, too, if you want more information on that. So what’s your email address again? DogsongsMaui?

55:49

Yeah. Well, that’s one of them. Well, let’s pick one. Just stay with that. DogsongsMaui at Yahoo.com. So even if you’re not into dog songs and you want Jeff or something else, you can get him there. And phone number we can give if you want. Well, email, yeah. Email is the best way to begin. Yeah. Okay.

56:07

Well, you can always contact us if you need them. You know that this show, along with all our shows, are at MauiNeutralZone.com. And you can see this again, all our shows. They’re all up on YouTube. We hope you’ll share with your friends what an incredible time you had at the Neutral Zone and that you want to come back and watch this show and others. We got 15 seconds. Isn’t that amazing? It has been a pleasure having you, Jeff. Okay. So I’ll do a quick shout-out. Quick shout-out to my wife, Madeira. I love you more than anything.

56:36

And my friend Jimmy, who lives in the park, he’s listening right now. That’s one listener. Hello, Jimmy. Hello, Jimmy. We’re leaving. We love you all. Thank you for joining us. We’ll see you next week.