LAWRENCE KAUHA’AHA’A -conversation about Wailuku Ambassadors Program

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Jason Schwartz with LAWRENCE KAUHA’AHA’A -conversation about Wailuku Ambassadors Program- help homeless get services and serve the area. Future integrated public and police/peace officer integration possibilities. 11-4-2019

Summary & Transcript

1. 1. 1. “The Neutral Zone” Interview with Lawrence Kauhaahaa on Homelessness and Community Outreach in Maui

•      [00:00 → 01:31] Introduction and Context Setting
  The show opens with host Jason Schwartz introducing “The Neutral Zone,” a program supported by Maui Arts and Music Association and the Dream Makers Foundation of Maui. Jason acknowledges the support these organizations have provided since 1991 in championing self-sustainability on Maui. The episode sets the stage for a discussion on homelessness, mental health, and community efforts in Wailuku, Maui, prompted by Jason’s personal experience with his car being broken into. This incident motivated him to look deeper into local housing and street conditions. A recent meeting with county officials and community leaders serves as the backdrop for the conversation.
• [01:31 → 06:30] Lawrence’s KAUHA’AHA’A’s Background and Program Overview
  Lawrence, a 25-year veteran of the Maui Police Department, retired about eight years prior but remained active in the community by coaching high school sports and running youth outreach through the Queen Emma Athletic Club in Wailuku. His wife is a clinical therapist working with the mentally ill. Lawrence explains that his involvement with homeless outreach began when he observed programs like Ohana Kitchen (which feeds the homeless) and Mental Kokua (which assists the mentally ill) coming under criticism for supposedly attracting homeless individuals to Wailuku. Lawrence argues these programs are assets responding to existing problems, not causes of homelessness.

He was convinced by Erin Wade from the County Planning Department to help with a new initiative called “Clean and Safe,” intended to provide security and cleaning services in Wailuku. Lawrence was skeptical of a security guard approach, emphasizing that guards lack authority and cleaning alone doesn’t solve the problem. Instead, he proposed engaging homeless and mentally ill individuals by providing work opportunities that also help restore dignity and community connection. The program evolved into employing outreach workers who interact compassionately with homeless people, offering food, water, clothing, and referrals to services, rather than merely displacing them. This initiative now operates under the name “Wailuku Ambassadors.”

• [06:30 → 14:07] Challenges of Trust and Mental Illness in Outreach
  Lawrence KAUHA’AHA’A discusses the pervasive mistrust among homeless and mentally ill populations towards assistance programs, largely due to side effects of medications and the stigma of treatment. Many individuals self-medicate with alcohol or drugs, which increases the likelihood of arrests and worsens long-term outcomes if untreated. Lawrence stresses that early intervention and court-ordered treatment, even if it requires arrest, can ultimately help stabilize individuals.

• 

The conversation turns to gender-specific challenges, such as women facing harassment in shelters, and the difficulty of creating “safe zones” or middle-ground shelters that balance freedom, safety, and liability concerns. Lawrence highlights significant legal and logistical complications: liability risks for the county if accidents or drug/alcohol use occur in designated areas, the difficulty of enforcing drug-free zones without violating privacy rights, and challenges with vehicle dwellers. The discussion touches on the “housing first” model, emphasizing that housing alone is insufficient without intensive support and treatment to prevent relapse into homelessness or substance abuse.

• [14:07 → 22:58] Safe Spaces, Day Centers, and Police Relations
  Lawrence describes existing shelters and day centers in Wailuku that provide beds, meals, showers, and social spaces where people can rest without drug or alcohol use, even if smoking cigarettes is allowed. These centers offer critical refuge and opportunities for social interaction, which are often overlooked by the public. He explains that some individuals use these spaces for venting and healing, while others eventually transition into jobs or more permanent housing.

• 

Jason expresses a hope for improved relations between police and the community, envisioning police as “peace officers” who are approachable and trusted rather than feared. Lawrence describes the second half of his program, which functions as safety consultants for local businesses. They educate business owners on how to engage with police effectively and manage issues involving homeless individuals, helping reduce the reactive nature of policing by increasing community understanding of police protocols.

They also discuss the Crisis Intervention Team (CIT) program, a federally encouraged training for police officers on mental health crises, which has diminished locally since a key trainer moved away. Jason advocates for more community-police interactions in non-crisis settings to build mutual understanding and trust.

• [22:58 → 30:54] Program Expansion and Lawrence’s Role
  Lawrence shares that the Wailuku pilot program is expanding to Lahaina (about 75% funded) and planned for Kahului. He reiterates that returning to this work was not a career move but driven by passion to support programs under attack and to protect the dignity of homeless and mentally ill individuals. He envisions mentoring current police officers to fill the community liaison role he once held and hopes to continue consulting for a few more years. His wife remains professionally active in mental health services.

Lawrence acknowledges that his outreach approach may be “too hands-on” given the increasing severity of some cases involving violence and substance abuse. They have no enforcement authority or weapons, which limits their ability to intervene in dangerous situations, reflecting broader community challenges in managing the complexities of homelessness and mental illness.

• [30:54 → 37:41] Operational Approach and Mapping Problem Areas
  Lawrence explains how the program identifies areas of concern by obtaining county tax maps and overlays indicating problem sites such as trespassing or drug activity. They determine property ownership to engage landowners in resolving issues, using police support as necessary. For county or state-owned properties, the process is more complex, often requiring outreach and coordination with mental health professionals.

• He references a long-time community member, Brad, in Kihei who has innovatively housed dozens of homeless people, highlighting the importance of coordinated efforts and sharing resources across agencies and individuals. Councilwoman Tasha Kama is noted as a collaborator in these endeavors. Lawrence stresses the need for programs to communicate and support each other to build trust and more effectively assist homeless individuals.

• [37:41 → 46:34] Community Education and Police Call Protocol
  A significant part of Lawrence’s work involves educating community members and businesses about their rights and responsibilities in dealing with homeless individuals and police interactions. They hold meetings starting with foundational principles such as the constitutional right to face an accuser in court, emphasizing that anonymous calls to police have limited effectiveness.

They teach the difference between emergency (911) and non-emergency calls, how dispatch and response work, and the importance of witnesses for legal action. Businesses learn how to issue trespass warnings and citizen’s arrests properly, often accompanied by outreach workers who can link individuals to services before police involvement. This education reduces frustration and empowers community members to navigate complex situations effectively.

Lawrence points out that police are often understaffed by 40-50 officers, limiting their ability to spend extended time on any one call and making the role of outreach workers and community education critical for effective management.

• [46:34 → 53:21] Homelessness Realities and Encouraging Compliance
  Lawrence distinguishes between chronically homeless individuals who are non-compliant due to addiction or mental illness, and those who experience homelessness due to bad luck or crisis but are motivated to get help. He emphasizes that motivated individuals can access housing and services if they follow program rules, though these often require sacrifices like giving up smoking or pets.

He acknowledges the dedication of social workers and mental health professionals who handle overwhelming caseloads and tirelessly work to improve outcomes. The program focuses on connecting people to intensive care and stabilizing medication regimens, helping many move off the streets permanently. Lawrence shares personal stories of success and the importance of tough love and persistence.

• 
• [53:21 → 56:11] Community Support and Police Perspective
  Lawrence highlights new efforts such as transforming the old Safeway building in Wailuku into a one-stop resource center offering food, medical care, showers, mental health treatment, and bed space. Providing a centralized place for services offers police and businesses viable alternatives to simply moving homeless individuals on or arresting them.

He reflects on his police career, emphasizing communication and de-escalation as key tools, and expresses a desire to see policing evolve toward a more compassionate and cooperative model. Despite the challenges, Lawrence’s approach blends enforcement knowledge with empathy, aiming to bridge gaps between community members, law enforcement, and vulnerable populations.

1. 1. 1. Key Insights

• 
• Homelessness and mental illness require integrated approaches combining outreach, education, supportive housing, and law enforcement collaboration.
• Programs like Wailuku Ambassadors demonstrate how engaging homeless individuals in work and offering compassionate services can reduce street issues and improve community relations.
• Trust-building is critical; many homeless individuals distrust formal programs due to medication side effects and stigma.
• Liability, legal, and privacy concerns complicate creating “safe zones” or middle-ground shelters.
• Educating communities about police protocols and legal rights helps reduce frustration and increases effective cooperation.
• Police are reactive and understaffed, so outreach and community education programs are essential complements to law enforcement.
• Successful transitions from homelessness require motivation, persistence, and access to intensive treatment and supportive housing.
• Community resource centers offering multiple services under one roof represent an ideal model for supporting homeless populations holistically.
  • • Conclusion

This in-depth dialogue sheds light on the complex realities of homelessness and mental illness in Maui, illustrating the critical role of empathetic outreach, community education, and coordinated services in creating safer and healthier neighborhoods. Lawrence’s unique perspective as a former police officer turned community liaison offers valuable lessons for balancing enforcement with compassion, empowering both vulnerable individuals and the broader community.

Transcript

00:00

kaku 88.5 Fm the voice of maui the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz would like to thank Maui Arts and Music Association three makers Foundation of Maui for their support since 1991 hundreds of television shows and their maui arts and music comm website they have champion self sustainability on Maui the neutral zone is earned live Mondays at 11 a.m. and replayed Saturday at 7 a.m. on kak u 88.5 FM the voice of Maui good morning everyone we are here and we are introducing our show to you [Music]

00:56

now the song that would have been here normally sympathy for the devil is in here we’re gonna have to reprogram the phone some of you may recall that my car was broken into and that process got me kind of motivated to look into things at our closer level at what’s happening here looking at housing looking at things on the street I went to a meeting a couple of weeks ago Tasha come up Councilwoman asked me to come and there at this meeting there are a few council people and the mayor and there were

01:31

people from different agencies and there was someone that stood out from the group he was eloquent you think of yourself as eloquent yeah here we go Lawrence it’s easy for you to say is running a program what why don’t you start by giving us in a nutshell what you’re doing so the the program well let me start off by saying I’m a 25 year veteran of the Martin Police Department I retired about eight years ago and when it retired I thought it was tiring for good anything I was going to

02:13

be working or doing anything ever again I coach at Lahainaluna high snow I didn’t think I was going to do I coach at Lahainaluna high school I’m the strength and conditioning coach for the boys JV and varsity football I also do girls basketball and boys basketball and a couple other sports I work with kids from six through twelfth grade they’re in line I also run a youth outreach group in Wailuku called the Queen Emma Athletic Club and I have kids there from 7 to 19 years old and you know was happy just doing that

02:50

and that program is right there at the Good Shepherd Church in Wailuku and part of that program we also have the Ohana kitchen where we feed the homeless over there once a week and I mentioned my wife earlier but she’s also a clinical therapist and she works at with the mentally ill and a couple of programs that were kind of near and dear to me the one was Ohana kitchen and mental Kokua that works with the mentally ill were kind of coming in an attack because of the homeless problem in there in

03:22

Wailuku about five or six years ago and people are saying that because they’re feeding the homeless in Wailuku and because of the mental Kokua there’s all these homeless that’s where the they distributed the homeless problem in Wailuku to I’m like well a lot of those programs are there in response to there being a home homeless issue they don’t it’s not like feeding pigeons you’re trying to attract them so you bring in these programs they’re there because you’re having these issues and they’re

03:48

trying to work with them so these programs are assets they’re not there to hurt they’re actually there to help and so I decided to speak up one day and Erin Wade from the County Planning Department and she’s a small town planner there she had been asking me to come back and work with the county and help with these issues she finally convinced me to step in and to work with her for a little bit so there was a program it’s called clean and safe and that’s what they’re calling calling my

04:20

program it’s kind of off-the-shelf generic name for the I don’t really care for that name in fact um that’s the reason I got involved because there I was supposed to help them select a vendor for this clean and safe basically it’s a security guard group with a cleaning element someone who is going to actually provide security private security and they would clean Wailuku town and I’m like well that’s not going to work one because a security guard doesn’t have any authority and what don’t need the police

04:52

would and then cleaning it you know you can get anybody clean a tongue but I thought that if you could get the people that you know the mentally ill the homeless people and get them back to work you know um instead of excluding people you wanted to include them in the process of cleaning it and you know while it was in Old Town and the old days people swept the town they didn’t get our blowers and make a big ruckus you know they sat out there and they swept then people would say good morning

05:19

and hello and I felt like that’s the way it should be done so me and my big mouth ended up getting this contract in so the he said how many security guards I 18 with a group of people act more like outreach workers so when we came across people letters for example at a homeless person instead of going up to them saying hey you got to get out of here move on um because you’re just displacing the problem you know asking them wait when’s the last time you had a hot meal using the church

05:50

as a resource because I can now go up through them with a cup of cold water and hand out you know food first aid clothing and then walk them over to mental koku and get them on a hot meal there they can get a shower they can get reunited with their case managers or social workers we receive if the if they have any kind of social agencies or benefits they can get hooked up with it there and so that’s how the program started and that’s how I got involved in it I say so why lucu ambassadors is a

06:30

name that identifies a program to clean up Wailuku and be hands-on with people that otherwise we’re just sitting there and taking up space now you’re putting them to work in a way of cleaning up the place get them cleaned up at the same time you get a lot of resistance from people that don’t trust these services I’ve had a lot of people in the mental health or if not mentally and the homeless community just simply don’t trust these programs in in the beginning um so for my understanding a

07:06

lot of people that are if you have a mental illness a lot of medications don’t feel good you know medications dull your senses they make them feel sleepy they feel removed so a lot of them don’t want to go in because they don’t want to receive the medications but a lot of times the behavior is gonna get them arrested you know also they a lot of them say self-medicate with alcohol drugs and that behavior also is going to get them arrested so we try to get them to go in and work with somebody

07:46

and have some kind of modification to their medication so that they can get feeling better and get feeling normal i 100% believe the longer somebody is out with a mental illness that’s not being treated that it actually causes more long-term harm to them if they’re self-medicating especially with harsha’s like methamphetamines or even with alcohol it’s actually causing even more harm so the sooner we get them off the streets and into a program the better even if it means and this is me from

08:28

years of being a police officer getting you arrested because arrest will mean court-ordered mental health assessment court-ordered drug treatment but either way you know even if it takes 2 or 3 or 4 times somebody unarrested it’s getting them that help or even getting them a lot of people are mental illnesses say that you know what it hit rock bottom it’s getting them there to that rock bottom so that they will voluntarily say okay you know I need help I need to go see somebody I need to

08:59

get medicated and I need to get you know get off the streets and so that’s how our program works well you know it’s I’ve unfortunately had an experience where someone close to me lost their house and became homeless a woman and they had problem with the the difference in being a female that these places of reception were very hard to her to be at because of the others that would be hitting on her and making her uncomfortable and that kind of stuff is there any kind of gentle way into a safe

09:44

zone to be able to let some of some of the people I understand you you have a personable attitude and you’re very approachable but some people you know might be stand-up is there any kind of middle ground where of them like I know that that the Crossman Foodland in Kahului there’s a church there that became a refuge at night I forgot the name of him no the family likes then a Family Life Center mm-hmm yeah when they used to be a place for men and a place women they used to be Salvation Army a place for a man and a

10:19

place for women and there was the formal shelter in Wailuku Holly I can’t even remember that it’s Holly Kayla kaalia kaalia Cola which again is very structured and again may restrict people that had drug or alcohol issues because they don’t want to be too are there any kind of safe middle grounds that are set up in your domain I want to say and where you’re working you know not really um ultimately you’re gonna have to have some structure you know I know people have mentioned even at night somebody

10:57

mentioned like for instance having a place where people would park their car and you know and knowing that there could be some drug use that could be alcohol use unfortunately in let’s say let’s say the county created this zone now if you’re the crowny you become liable for it so if you look at call at Safeway there was a car accident about a month ago where the somebody drove in and and they died now if you created that zone that zone you you’re not reliable for that accident and if he killed somebody else

11:31

you’re also liable for that if it was alcohol or drug related and that one I understood was a medical condition but let’s say it was alcohol or drug related you’re liable because how do you ensure that the person wasn’t you know on alcohol or drugs then you have to most vehicles or vehicles are required to have insurance how do you ensure that they were safe that they had insurance so it’s it’s hard to not have rules and just have like you said middle ground type things and that’s too like they

12:07

talked about housing first you know they have these this concept is called housing first we they try to have it here but it takes intensive treatment that goes along with the housing because a lot of these folks if you gave them a house a shoebox full of hundred dollar bills they’d be homeless within a week if you don’t have some kind of intensive treatment that goes along with it I’ve heard stories will be given someone that’s almost a place and it becomes a new drug Haleh you know and it becomes a

12:37

center of a problem I understand that I just AM always thinking that liability or not they can check people on the way and if they want their I mean people that don’t have a lot of money can also get their insurance paid for by the state so there’s some some answers for a lot of these people you could look at that and again you know how much are you willing to spend on that you know what’s issue when it comes to vehicles if they’re using the vehicle to go to work you know they’ve got a job they’re going

13:07

to there might be something to consider if they’re leaving using the car to live in something to consider but the other thing is now especially when it comes to like drug users you’re talking about like methamphetamines and stuff like that yeah now a card belongs to a person if they’re living in it that’s or not I mean it’s it’s um it’s a personal property it’s almost like their home this is a domicile so if we are you know if you’re gonna create these zones you’re gonna want to have a drug-free

13:40

alcohol-free zone right I mean let’s just say you I would think now the only way to ensure that is you would have to search the vehicles well you can’t search the vehicles because it’s private property you’d actually have to have a search warrant to search the vehicle so what do you do with people who don’t cooperate it seems like on the way and that becomes a requirement yeah and that’s in that’s where that’s why a lot of these I mean it’s good thoughts if everybody were to

14:07

cooperate and say you know yeah I want this ID I need help I’m willing to you know be involved in your drug-free zone you know go ahead search my vehicle that would be fine but that’s not what you often find that’s not what you’re offering fine and then again the liability becomes too great for the county which is us you know the ones that are going to work and paying and paying taxes we’re the ones ultimately going to be footing the bill when somebody gets hurt or killed when I

14:37

was at that meeting where I heard where people have on that their businesses almost either in the front or sure and a right next door becomes an issue don’t we almost have to create a zone that’s safe to get them to be off the street I know they’ve tried this different areas and that’s what we were looking at like so in Wailuku town and that’s what was really fortunate that’s why I said that like Matt told KOCO there it’s it’s an asset to you you have you have the

15:05

places there where they have bed space they have a meeting room they have a place where they get a hot meal they can take a shower they have washing machines they can wash their clothes they have a courtyard in the back where there’s you know at any given time you’ll have 15 or 20 people sitting there they can’t drink they can’t use drugs but you know they have cigarettes you know the smoke cigarettes whatever but a lot we’re just hanging out there just talking story you know they’re just

15:30

just having you know a good time in talking story and hanging out does that ever develop into a progression of of work or something they can do to be responsible and feel good about them some of them you know some you know yeah they didn’t up coming to work for us to go work at other places you know someone just need that time to vent and work with it you know to have somebody to talk to um but if you they weren’t there doing that they’d be on the streets in Wailuku you know and unfortunately people would

16:03

have their opinions and their thoughts and they would look down on them you know it’s like well you know you know what are you guys doing there you know get a job you bomb whatever a lot of these guys couldn’t work even if they wanted to because of their mental condition but just having their own space in their own their own space in their own place to be is huge in like a daytime refugia and it really is you know and then but at night there’s beds available they have beds available there

16:29

a lot of these guys have their own places they’re armed because of the program they’re they can apply for HUD housing they have section 8 housing where they gaps you have a place to go but because of that place there they meet with their their mental health providers they get in they get that intensive care right there well that’s good that there are services available and that’s what we’re looking and that’s and that’s I was gonna say we didn’t callaloo Lee that’s what we’re looking

16:55

at also with showers and beds and we’re yeah we’re all there any requirement let’s say you’re there for three weeks I mean are they moved into programs from that the idea is that they eventually will transition into more permanent housing once there they’re stabilized with their medications and they’re stabilized and they can they can now transfer into sometimes they move things like a group home or then from the group home they move into like HUD housing moving they can get their own places to

17:29

live and they’re gonna go to work when you say medication I’m always thinking you know I remember you know someone they get medication to calm down because of the anxiety in the situation yeah that’s considered mental health yeah yeah yeah and I’m I’m no professional as a police officer I’m sure you don’t look on evenings I want a crew I would like to see an environment where when I see a police officer I think of them as a peace officer where they’re there and I

18:00

know they’re there to make things better and more calm where because of your experience out there on every single call you never know seriously I’m sure you know that you don’t know who’s got what out there it’s become an uncomfortable environment just to speak to a police officer as an envoy so I would like to somehow find a way to get rid of that get the police to be more involved even on things like this to to them to be understood better as human yeah you know and unfortunately

18:34

and that’s the second half of our program and that’s I don’t like that clean it safe like I said off-the-shelf description of that program so our second half of our program is we’re more like safety consultants so what the county basically bought was a safety consultant for each of the businesses in Wailuku but we have an education portion and after the educational portion we actually go and help people walk through the process of calling the police you know as most people know the police are short forty

19:13

to fifty police officers in any given time you know you’re always looking at 10 or 15 people retiring every year and you know the classes are getting smaller and smaller so as a resource officers you know when you call me police officers they’re generally reactive so you know what you’re describing that when the officers come you know it’s usually a situation that’s kind of out of control and that’s why it’s always totally reactionary and it’s never it’s them trying to get gained control of a

19:43

situation it’s not being proactive as much anymore and that’s where like like for us who we’re now my program I can be more like you know a when’s the last time you had somebody you know or you know a who’s your case manager and trying to be more sympathetic with them and trying to work with them and getting them into a back into the program or back into somewhere instead of just calling the police getting arrested and or moved on and it’s a lot of it has to do with that the

20:15

police are just going from call to call and you know and that’s what our program is trying to help people utilize that resource the police so that you know you’re not just calling and they’re coming in you know you’re not making the most of that call I don’t know how many years ago I’ve been into a guy who was in the mental health profession and someone who was bridging homeless and they talked about this CIT program that there was a mandate I don’t know if the word mandates right the federal

20:48

government said hey malli police you’re getting a little rough out there we need you to go through training and that was training for awhile and this guy moved to the Big Island Robert Carlson oh I wondered if the police are also aware of this middle ground is there ever I’d like to see meetings where public and police somehow have an opportunity to mix more it’s I often think of it like when I go to a meeting and I don’t see any Hawaiians what’s the deal here how come we’re not integrating our cultures

21:18

I think the same thing about the public and the law enforcement somehow getting to know each other on a different letter so that it isn’t so reactionary so that people can feel like they’re calling them a peace officer but they can not have to all spread in 50 directions they’re afraid of the police and you know of course that would be you know that would be an idea and that’s something you would take up with you know Chi foam um and I don’t see why he wouldn’t make that happen

21:49

well this was ongoing I just wondered when this guy moved to the that program sort of went away and I always wonder you know where things get started I can go through the chief and it’s one of those things you know generally things like that need a moderator you know somebody facilitated and you know carry that conversation and create that Network and you know making it meaningful and having those conversations so that making the most of that time when you have the officers there in the community and you know

22:25

trying to bridge that gap but also making it meaningful so that um at the end of the day you know there’s some achievements that everybody can kind of hang a hat on well in some ways that’s why I’ve got this show because I want to talk about things sometimes are controversial but want to know the reasons why and how we can break down those barriers to the a our national level we’re being polarized here locally we could be a great example and live in a different kind of an environment I

22:58

just what I just keep constantly trying to see I feel you know when I had my issue mostly I was told that did you step back I’m feeling it I’m just gotten stolen for I was not attacking the Blue Boy so suddenly I felt distant and I just really would like to think that officers again oh we have so much time it’s not time for me to go to a commercial I see we don’t have commercials here we got a few minutes okay oh I’m uh I just keep bringing that up because I was gonna shift gears and as you can tell I can go

23:34

off and on and on the illness and then the next part was gonna be a little lengthy to Seoul so why don’t we wait on that and maybe we’ll go early and any of you out there I want you to know that if you want to listen to this show again go to Maui neutral zone calm it’s right now on Facebook live it’s at kak you on Facebook you can find it you can find it on you later at Maui neutral zone calm I have all our shows I think of it as a library of interviews of resources as some of the great people have been on Lawrence’s

24:08

if people want to get in touch with you how do they do that um let me let me look for the number I saw your email address was that intended to be given out or no no let me give you my other one I have another keep me alive just to give okay but let me give you have after the bracelets all right um I just think it’s important because you are so approachable and because of your personal history as being a police officer I think that’s really an important thing that people feel comfortable there a lot I got to think

24:43

of all the homeless people that I’ve met that had they met someone that approached them with the kind of you have a very comfortable out of you don’t seem like you’re maybe you can tell me when you’re on calls as a police officer you’re in a different stance right yeah well you know when I was an officer it was my whole career is basically um a community liaison at some point or another and um a lot of it had to do even when I when I was doing like investigating crimes it’s it’s about

25:16

people it’s about gathering information you know the more the more you knew the more you people you knew the easier was to solve things and I think that was the most important part and yeah once it was time to do the job you could be rough around the edges too but you know we won’t win more we wore many hats it’s gonna be that way we’re gonna take a break and we’ll come back and we’ll let you know how to get in touch with Lawrence hahahaha who is working in a program in Wailuku well I don’t want to

25:53

call it clean it the company’s name is actually holding my Chi eServices and hold my Chi II it means that do the right thing to do the right thing well we’ll be back in just a bit please enjoy these breaks the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz would like to sincerely thank David Bryan for his support David was founder and head of school at New Road School in Santa Monica California and as the board chair at the Ojai Foundation and on the board for brave new films the neutral zone has heard live Mondays at 11:00 a.m. here on

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27:18

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27:44

this is Bill best inviting you to join me for my show on kak u 88.5 FM it’s off the record and I have a chance to speak with some of the most interesting people on and off the island so be sure to listen in every Tuesday and Thursday from 11 until noon here on ke ke you the voice of Maui 88.5 FM hi I’m Jason Schwartz host of the neutral zone KNK U is a listener-supported station this means that all the great programs you hear like mine are sponsored by you as well as armed writers if you would like

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to help keep the voice of Maui looking loud and clear go to KN k UF m dot org slash donate today and give and don’t miss the neutral on Mondays at 11:00 a.m. on 88.5 FM the voice of family we are back this is the neutral zone I’m Jason Schwartz here with Lauren scowl ha ha ha ha whoo and we are talking about life life on a very basic level of people that and your program is in Wailuku but your program I imagine there are people in different areas that are working in the same way W and in touch with people that

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are civilians doing this well so the program is in Wailuku now that was the pilot program it’s um it’s being considered for Lahaina and I my my understanding is it’s about like 75% funded for Lahaina so should be there relatively soon and now we’re talking about doing it in Kahului the funniest thing is wasn’t a career move for me at all like I said I was 3 years retired and no I know had no plans on going back to work didn’t want to do any of this but again you know a couple things near and dear

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to my heart was kind of coming under attack and I was like well you know don’t blame the mental health professionals and don’t blame you know people that are trying to be kind and compassionate to these homeless people for the problem of homelessness and mental illness in drugs these people are trying to help them that’s what they’re set up for you know there’s other issues for why these things are here and so you know me my big mouth and next thing you know I’m back in it again and you know

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it’s starting to expand I do have a plan I want to do this probably for another four or five years I’m one of helped I was once a liaison from the police department of the community nine I see my role as a leis on from the community back to the police I’d like to mentor and another officer to fill kind of that void that I had when I was a police officer and you know hopefully I can go riding off into the sunset once again and we’ll see what that looks like is your wife ready to ride oh no no she’s not she she has to

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work she has to work for a few more years I retired when I was young so I can see you know kind of continuing having some sort of like this consultant role that I think having I think the community still needs somebody there to help them understand you know a lot of the safety and the policing side of this role but you know I think we’re a little bit too hands-on I think with us for one thing I think our the way we’re doing things are a little too hands-on and I’d really like to see the partnership

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change a little bit hands on meaning who you’re looking to step up oh well I think well I think yeah we’re a little bit – more little too direct with our approach we with some of the leading with some of these the mentally ill the drug-addicted people in the beginning I mean it wasn’t it didn’t seem as bad until now you know you have cases where people are shooting and stabbing and all that so it’s you know we don’t have any authority we don’t have any firearms they don’t have

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any weapons we don’t have anything like that and so it is getting the role is changing a little bit but you know again so nor does anybody else so the rest of the community is in you know they’re in the same position that I’m in so you know I think it’s necessary and and maybe that’s something you know I was an officer for so many years and you know you’re privileged to so many different things as far as the safety part of it so maybe now that I feel this thing of what it’s like to be on the opposite in

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you know you don’t have the firearm you don’t have the authority and the laws now you’re trying to do it without that so you may be that does make me a little bit more keen and a little more sensitive to what has to happen so you know a little weakening I think now before the break we were talking and you were mentioned you’re gonna go off into another area we want to talk about but let’s give people whether they’re homeless or whether they’re interested in somehow being involved to be able to

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help how do they get in touch so I have my office number it’s eight oh eight to five zero seven one two six eight zero eight two five zero seven one to six or you can email me at its home Mike ie H oh oh ma I K AI 44 at gmail.com I got that one okay okay I got it and you’re looking for more people to be able to help you do you could just go out into the community and start meeting people is that your approach um so are so when we identify an area like so when I first started in Wailuku the very first thing

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and this is something I’ve done when I was an officer for 20 five years the very first thing I do is I get a map I get a map from the county and it’s generally the counties TM case of the tax map key for a place so if we were talking about Wailuku I’ll get the map of of Wailuku what I want to see is who owns what property and so every and not so every single piece of property of what’s County what state who owns what piece of property then I get an overlay of where all the problem areas are so we

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identify where the you know where there’s trespassing where there’s drugs and all this stuff and we put it all done with the police you get I can get I get access up through the I got that through the Planning Department I see so we can get that through them and then we just relay that out we do a layover we see this is where our problems are so these are the property owners if its private property generally those are the easiest because you can just contact the property owner and see these are the

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issues on your property and you know if we can use the police to clean it up or if it’s you know trespassing all that kind of stuff it’s pretty simple to do once it becomes county or state then you know is it a public park is it when you move people do you give them where to go and that’s what we when we in Wailuku and again that’s was the the yes we had Medical Corps so that’s this and in Kahului you’re hoping to have some kind of we’re hoping to have something but we

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also you know because we don’t have something that people can walk up to well we can also bring in mental professionals where we can actually have them on-site and help people and take them and move them to certain places you don’t have them go to facility so it’s a little bit more cumbersome but we can still do it I’ve seen people in Kihei I have a friend named Brad brother Brad I don’t you know had 28 people living for a while has a unique way of housing people and got them to be responsible there are

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things going on in Kihei I’d like to see it all coordinate in fact councilman Tasha comas gonna be meeting with him those for a long time since he was working with her they’re working with homeless it’s funny how these things really in our people’s hearts he’s been doing this for 36 years trying to help homeless be you know there are people that can’t do it you know you see they have the personality for they need help this why I think of it is to get programs known by each

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other and gain a level of support you know maybe we can’t handle it and once one move but maybe together we can really get it and get a level of trust to be able to help shift things between areas like this guy I know I’m bringing it up this guy that he may not be alone but I don’t want to be too you know to know the process of what the police does well I got a picture of the of this guy I had it out there on Facebook and I know the guys name I can tell you from talking to homeless people where and we

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moves I try to report how do we get some awareness as of a victim that was a victim to a crime I just was crazy which took like ten eleven days before a detective was assigned and I was feeling desperate so so with our program then we to get a map we get it overlay you see where all our issues are then we have an educational meeting so we brought every we we went door-to-door we hand out flyers we did we did media we did social media and we called everybody in to come in door meet for the people that have

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for that half of that particular area what the homeless so we know I wave they were there that was fine too you know it was anybody who was within that area so if we were gonna do call Louie same thing we go door-to-door we do media releases we do whatever we could to get the word out and without people come to attend this meeting and we start from the very beginning and we started at the US Constitution people need to understand that if if there was a crime that if there was a crime that was committed that people have the right to

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have to bear have some bear have the right to face their accuser so if somebody you would couldn’t make an anonymous call you’d have to bear witness against that person so a lot of times people will make an anonymous call I could say that somebody’s being disorderly throwing things around in the middle of the street they’ll call him you know call the police say there’s a guy he’s throwing things around in the middle of the street you know blocking up traffic so of course she’s doing that

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when you called and the police show up five minutes later he’s not doing it anymore well the police can’t do anything unless there is an actual witness to that so you’re gonna have to come forward and say I saw it cuz the police can’t they saw him and you if even if they saw me sitting on the sidewalk now he’s not actually doing it so they need to actually witness it or they need somebody to witness what that offence is and that’s why I said it starts at the US Constitution right

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there you have to be able to have somebody say it happen so anonymous phone calls don’t work so a lot of times people will call us yeah I called the police didn’t do anything well just that statement alone a lot of times is it’s the the cancer that just degrades our system because people just what they heard oh yeah I call the police nothing happened well it’s not really fair because you have to follow the steps so what so in our class we teach them when you call the police you have either a

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911 call versus a non-emergency call so you know we go through the criteria of what would be an emergency call what would be a non-emergency call and if you did call 9-1-1 the difference between what they have called my enhanced 9-1-1 so if you did a drop call where you call 9-1-1 and you got cut off then they would send an officer based on that 9-1-1 call and then they have features like the gps tracking you could do texting they have all these different features in 9-1-1 and a lot of times people say well i called the police and

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asked me all these questions just send me a cop well there’s a difference between the call taker and the dispatchers so a lot of times the officer i mean this the call taker can be taking the call but they’re typing out that information in the dispatch you’re sending officer so while there are the obtaining all this information they’re actually sending somebody at the same exact time so I think when people understand how the police work and their protocol it makes it easier for them to

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go it makes them more comfortable and then once the police are sent and they arrive that you have to you can’t just sit in the back and hope the police you can do something you have to step forward and say yeah that’s the person I saw him do what he did well you may actually have to go to court you may have to go and testify you may if it was a non felony you might have to do a citizen’s arrest if it was a felony then there and the person left or whatever you might have to do a photo lineup I

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mean like in your case you know the detective may be called you may contact you later but there’s all these things that have to happen part of our program is so once you understand what the protocol is and there’s this standard you can you now know what the standard is and you can hold officers to that standard but you’re also as a citizen it’s nice to know what those procedures are so you don’t get even more frustrated yeah you don’t know what’s going yeah and you know how and why and

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you know you know and because of the civil rights for the defendant and you for you as well you know what they are but it also helps that now you can hold them to that you hold them accountable and if they meet the standard you can now you can complain you can say you know I called I did everything that they asked and you didn’t meet that standard but you’ll find that if you do it correctly you know officers will meet that challenge you’ll do it the way it’s supposed to be done it’s just doing it that way and if

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they don’t at least you know you can say that you know I followed each of these steps you also find that when you make these calls a lot of things are all time-stamped all the phone calls are recorded they’re time-stamped they know exactly if you call that 1052 and the officer arrives at 10:55 they’re gonna know and they’re gonna know exactly when he came so part of our classes and that’s what we do so my program where we become the consultants now in Wailuku if somebody calls and if it’s a

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non-emergency call well they have like a trespasser they may call us and we’ll come by and we’ll say okay you don’t call the police you know we have all their all the forms of the necessary forms of trespass warning forms a citizen’s arrest forms and we walk the business through each step so they’re not doing it alone especially for the very first time a lot of times people get intimidated and say oh I’m that’s not gonna do it so you end up having this guy sleeping in your parking lot

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forever and ever any man just because it’s easier he’s like he’s alright you know he we just asked him to clean up after himself because that’s easier than having them removed because now we actually have somebody that will help you walk him through and then you have somebody who can actually go up to the guy and say hey when’s the last time you had somebody do you know about this service you know about that service have you do you have a case manager no let’s go call your case manager have somebody

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come in whether police officers or wear that kind of stuff or oh there yeah and that’s at CIT program you talked about that there needs program they have all those things but again not every single one of them and not and not every single time or they’re gonna have the time to go through all of that and you mentioned forty to fifty people short of the staff thing yeah so was I’m wondering why aren’t I seeing them yeah but like you say yeah how much do you be that he said yeah you know and

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he could be he could have two or three Paul Stockton you know he’s just gonna play you gotta go and that’s it so you know he’s gonna be very short because he has to go to two or three other calls someone maybe a car accident someone could be more pressing you know sometimes you want just have to leave right in the middle of the call so that’s where we help them get through that so by timing the police officer comes it’s gonna be very short very brief because we’ve done everything else

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that needs to be done he’s not explaining to you about the trespass for him he’s not explaining to you about the citizen’s arrest we’ve done all of that you’ve been through a class that teaches you how what to anticipate what the protocol is and then now you’re having somebody walk you through it it would be interesting to tie some of these classes with getting different licenses you know some where when you’re getting certain things you have a responsibility to get more information that would be really a

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powerful it would be if somebody else wants to do it because like I said I’m trying to retire yeah that was not a this is not a career move for me at all but it was something you know I never invented all this stuff this is all stuff I did as a police officer these are all based off of regular laws of you know the county state statues and ordinances none of these are any of these I don’t believe in creating new laws like the sit-lie laws or laws that are directed toward any one particular

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group because I think you’re going to get in trouble when you do that you’re gonna lose those in court I mean you have there’s enough laws that pertain to you know trespassing alcohol drug use all that kind of stuff and if they’re not violating and that’s another thing in Wailuku you know I think people have learned if the guys just sitting there he’s just sitting there there’s nothing you’re gonna do you know come on you know people have that right to then of the fact oh so I don’t know how to deal

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with it but like this guy and my example when I went up to homeless they know him but they’re afraid of him because he also raised on the homeless yes so I’m just hoping that by taking a wall down between us citizens at the police we can somehow that’s why I said peace officer feel like we’re on the same side know how the rules are played know what rules they must play because of the laws and I didn’t and you bring up a good point so you know part of it like because we deal with homeless all the time we kind of

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just graze over it and get right to the the non-compliant homeless but you know when you have people that like you know they hit Skid of bad luck or they lose a job or they with the kids and all that kind of stuff if you’re motivated to get off the streets if you if you comply with and you follow the rules yes it does take some time but you can get off the streets you can get a home you can get into we have Pro for those there are there are a bunch of different programs but you have to follow the steps in you and them aren’t

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comfortable no yeah give up different rights that are yeah I mean yeah some some of these places yeah you can’t smoke in your you know you can’t smoke in your dwelling and you can’t you know you can’t have a pad or whatever but you know I have to pick my pet over my child you know you I’ll let my cousin hold my pet while I keep my kid in I appreciate that you know I cannot you know then when your situation gets better and you got your pet back but you know the idea is that if you’re motivated and you work

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towards getting off the streets there are programs you know I’ve said it I’ve said it before there’s a lot of very educated very smart people very compassionate and well-meaning people that work in that in the with these with the homeless that work when they see their I mean they’re tirelessly trying to make this better so social workers everyone seems you have the overworked many cases yeah and a person and if you look at it I mean they’re trying they’re trying hard so a

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lot of times when we we speak we’re focusing on the non-compliant the chronically homeless the ones that are you know with the chronic drug use alcohol use the ones that are stealing you know those are the ones that we everybody gets focused on but yeah there are the ones the ones that are you know they sleep during the day because they get victimized that night and those are the ones that we try to work with the most and those are the ones when I come across you know I’ve had many where I’ll

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see them and I’ll talk to them and I’ll ask them you know when’s honest I see some me you know let me take you down to this place and there’ll be more than willing to come with me and when they get there you know because of Hippo and those those kinds of privacy laws I I never see them again but they get help I know they are because they’re not they’re not on the streets ever again you get in there they get help they get a place to live some of them come back and say yeah you know I’ve got some

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places all have you right many older people I find that I’m older and I find there are a lot of older people that suddenly are faced with the situation of not having enough money to live there are programs but there are like six and seven and eight year waiting lists now you know I saw this one gentleman it was you know he just got released from jail and seeking a boulder you know and he just got released from jail and he actually need a ride back to the jail he didn’t get his money out or something so

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he went back got his money and then you didn’t still didn’t have a place we took on the mental Kokua and you again him very motivated to get off the streets they don’t want to be out there never saw him again and generally the things like that happened he got a place to go well never saw him again as good in you yeah it is because I know I’ve had him go in and come right back out and they’ll be on the streets and but you know a lot of them I remember this one woman small maybe four ten tiny

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little Gallagher’s out there very feisty and I knew it was more of a defense mechanism just to keep people away from her yeah and um you know we were constantly on her keep trying to get her into meth uh Cocula day after day after day she finally walked in and you know she was there for two or three days and then one day she came out and said you know she actually thinks that she says thank you for the tough love because if it wasn’t for that so be homeless you know something some people don’t thank us you know they’re

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still pissed off because it’s it’s more fun for them to be running around and you know drinking and being free but don’t homeless anymore if we were to say to the average citizen here’s something that you can do to make the situation better what would you think you know you know be supportive of these initiatives that have to do it helping with the mentally ill I wouldn’t you know a lot of people like to give them like handout money and just give it to them a lot of is he’s gonna go back and buy alcohol

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mom I like to say like if somebody is drinking vodka every single day and that’s all they do is drink vodka it’s basically killing them slower so if you have a mental in listen you’re treating it self-medicating with alcohol or vodka you’re killing yourself slowly and you know they a lot of them have depression and you know they’re basically trying to kill themselves they just they know what they’re doing and it’s going to kill themselves although many people that have housing that a

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drink like every day but they’re doing it slowly but they’re killing themselves you know they’re not you know taking saram themselves they’re starting to get sores and you know there’s flies and maggots and all this kind of suffering people are still giving of money you know if you were trying to kill yourself with a gun or a knife or a rope or you standing on a building you know a team of negotiators the SWAT team everybody trying to get you help but you do it slowly with a bottle and people give you

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money right say well here’s a couple more bucks do you know what they’re gonna go and do with it well we should be doing supporting like mental health professionals and getting these guys the help that they would get had that been a knife or a gun or like standing on a tall building because ultimately that’s what they’re trying to do they’re trying to kill them they’re trying to end this they’re trying to stop this and that’s what they’re doing it at with a bottle

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they’re just doing it really slowly well I don’t know I have I’ve listened to this subject I know that the people are out there that are doing this might say well if I had a place to live and I had some kind of gainful work so I’m I’m hoping that by coming together and being open to the seeing someone like yourself or whoever replaces you yeah that will create the ground where the services and things that are available almost like all the services available so they can make a big giant step toward getting

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their lives together yeah we’re looking at like though that old safe way you don’t call you know I I understand Ross is gonna move on with that gold building they’re turning that into a resource center like a one-stop shop where they can come in they can get everything from a haircut to seeing a dock they’re getting mental health treatment again housing and even having some bed space showers food all that in wonder one roof and if you could get something like that and so the average person I

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think could help when you see that kind of initiative is that kind of a program coming support that I think that’s one of the key things that you need one because now people have a place to go you have a place to send them and to now when so I mean the police have to move somebody on they say well that’s your option you go there or you go to jail this is nice to have an option yeah but those are the two viable options there’s no staying there you know staying out and you know and somebody’s front on

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their sidewalk or in front of a store urinating defecating it’s not an option you know you have to go get treatment you have to go you know it’s just not an option but we have to have something for them to go to when you were police officer were you as friendly and warm as you are now you seem like you know most officers are depending on the situation it really depended on the situation but you know any of my calls regardless if it was a traffic stop where you were holding a knife for a gun I always tried to defuse

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it by my approach you know I always tried to defuse any big was like move how’s it looking at a gun or a knife because if you could talk your way out of it that was gonna be the best approach but you know I’ve had a pretty colorful career I did I had all kinds of assignments and but you know you’ve been at a full spectrum of Pouliot work so where you’re I think that as a reaction to some of the other things that you’re involved in to recognize the need for what you’re doing yeah

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and I think most police officers are I think a lot of people tend to be a little bit more defensive my wife says I’ve relaxed quite a bit since I retired but I think it’s you know even when I was an officer it really is it’s about communicating it is that yeah I don’t mean to be cutting it short because communicating is coming to an end we have been here it’s amazing we’ve been here an hour Lawrence ha ha ha ha Austin is here with me and you’ll see ways to get in touch

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with him thank you for being part of our show and part of the the good work you’re doing to make this a better Maui thank you well thank you for having me appreciate my pleasure thank you guys for joining us we’ll see you next week we have not next week as a vacation Co watch a repeat but after that thank you for joining us it’s been a pleasure having you [Music]