LUCIENNE DeNAIE- CROSSROADS

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Summary & Transcript Below…

Jason Schwartz shares an hour of rich conversation about current and local Maui issues with LUCIENNE deNAIE, host of popular long-running TV series on Maui, “CROSSROADS”… water, housing, injection wells, upcoming Walk of Heroes ceremony honoring her & others…..& more-

Summary of “The Neutral Zone” Interview with Lucienne DeNaie

Host: Jason Schwartz
Date: Monday, September 30th
Broadcast: KAKU 88.5 FM, Maui

[00:00 → 02:06] Introduction and Guest Introduction

• Jason Schwartz opens the show by thanking the Maui Arts and Music Association and the Dream Makers Foundation of Maui for their longstanding support.
• The Neutral Zone airs live Mondays at 11 a.m. and replays Saturdays at 7 a.m. on KAKU FM 88.5, also available on Facebook Live and MauiNeutralZone.com.
• Jason introduces guest Lucienne DeNaie emphasizing that although he’s known her for almost 30 years, this is their first formal conversation on his show in 25 years.

[02:06 → 05:15] Luciennene DeNaie’s Role and Show “Crossroads”

• Lucienne hosts “Crossroads,” a biweekly show on AKAKU Maui Community Media (Channel 55), airing Tuesdays from 7 to 8 p.m. and replaying several times weekly.
• The show features community conversations covering music, art, politics, nonprofit initiatives, and social issues affecting keiki (children), elders, and the homeless.
• Lucienne has been doing the show for eight years, interviewing a diverse range of guests and occasionally hosting special forums such as candidate interviews during election seasons.
• The show’s content is driven by suggestions from the public, staff, and her own ideas, offering a smorgasbord of topics relevant to Maui’s community.

[05:15 → 10:54] Discussion on Maui’s Water Use and Development Plan

• Lucienne shares her extensive involvement with Maui’s water use and development plan, which she has tracked since 2003.
• She highlights the importance of viewing water management holistically as “one water,” integrating potable water, wastewater, and stormwater management, rather than treating them separately.
• Examples include encouraging resorts like Wailea to use reclaimed water instead of potable water for landscaping, reducing overall water demand.
• She mentions Ted Bowman from Tsunami Products, who produces water from air, a promising technology to reduce pressure on existing water systems.
• Lucienne stresses the need for water conservation policies and action plans with clear timelines and budgets, noting that despite plans existing since 1990, many ideas have never been implemented.
• She contrasts Maui’s water policy with Honolulu’s, which has successfully reduced residential water demand by 8% despite population growth through incentives and conservation programs.

[10:54 → 17:59] Local Politics, Water Management, and Supreme Court Case

• 

  Woman speaking into a microphone at Maui Neutral Zone studio.

  Luciennene discusses the responsiveness of local council members, particularly Councilmember Shane Sinenci, who represents Hana and is deeply connected to Hawaiian values regarding water as a shared resource.

• She praises Council Chair Tammy King’s business-minded approach, emphasizing the need for actionable plans rather than endless studies.
• The conversation shifts to the injection well lawsuit involving the County of Maui, scheduled for a Supreme Court hearing in early November.
• Luciennene expresses skepticism about Mayor Victorino’s handling of the case, suggesting he has an incomplete understanding and questioning the motives behind continuing the lawsuit.
• She references friend-of-the-court briefs from other towns and tribes warning against the County’s petition, emphasizing the environmental and legal importance of recognizing underground water flows under the Clean Water Act.
• The Department of Health’s stance is for collaboration and compliance rather than fines, but the mayor appears to resist working closely with state authorities.
• Lucienne notes the significant influence of external lobbying groups like mining and fracking interests, which may be distorting local decisions. She stresses that there is broad community opposition to continuing the lawsuit, yet the mayor’s advisors seem to support it.

[17:59 → 24:35] Broader Implications of Water Lawsuit and Community Impact

• Lucienne explains the legal nuances: the Clean Water Act has covered underground water flows for decades, but Maui’s injection wells are a novel local challenge.
• She dismisses exaggerated fears about cesspools and other sources being regulated the same way, calling those scare tactics.
• The interview touches on the contradiction of ongoing development, such as building in high-risk tsunami zones and expanding infrastructure without adequate water or environmental planning.
• Lucienne urges the public to voice their concerns to local officials, emphasizing that the mayor does not have to dictate council actions, but there are rumors he’s exerting undue influence on legal decisions.
• She speculates about the role of business interests and local chambers of commerce, expressing frustration that economic concerns are being used as a smokescreen to delay real solutions.
• Lucienne calls for dropping the lawsuit and working collaboratively with the Department of Health to implement practical wastewater reuse solutions.

[24:35 → 29:53] Upcoming Issues and Local Government Changes

• 

  Podcast studio with Maui Neutral Zone branding, perfect for Hawaiian community radio.

  Lucienne previews an upcoming show featuring reporters Axel Beers and Susan Halas, focusing on Wailuku’s redevelopment and parking structure controversies, highlighting community concerns about rezoning and urban planning.

• She acknowledges positive leadership changes on the County Council, praising members like Shane Sinenci and Tammy King for pushing forward significant reforms long overdue.
• The conversation honors the late Danny Mateo, a respected council member known for his humor and dedication, expressing sadness at his recent passing.
• Lucienne and Jason reflect on the opportunities for community activism and media to raise awareness and mobilize citizens around critical local issues.

[29:53 → 36:31] Housing Crisis and Potential Solutions

• Lucienne discusses Maui’s persistent housing crisis, noting that most new construction targets the high-end retirement market, leaving average local workers without affordable options.
• She highlights the disconnect between average wages and the cost of housing, illustrating how typical mortgage qualifications are out of reach for many residents.
• Lucienne advocates for innovative solutions like decentralized water and power systems (e.g., water-from-air technology) that could lower infrastructure costs and enable affordable housing developments on unused land.
• She compares Maui’s situation to European models, where government involvement helps regulate and support housing and infrastructure development, creating balanced, livable communities with mixed-use clusters rather than sprawling, poorly planned growth.
• Lucienne stresses the importance of government partnerships with large landowners to secure land and financing for affordable housing, with mechanisms ensuring long-term affordability beyond the typical 10-year limit.

[36:31 → 44:33] Financing and Policy Challenges in Affordable Housing

• Lucienne recounts past successes when Maui leaders negotiated land set-asides for affordable housing, though she notes current challenges with private developers scaling back affordable housing commitments.
• She emphasizes the need for public sector involvement to provide infrastructure and low-cost financing, ensuring projects are financially viable and sustainable.
• The conversation touches on county funds that could be better utilized to support affordable housing through low-interest loans or investment pools.
• Lucienne critiques the current trend of developers reducing affordable housing percentages and warns that without enforceable policies, the housing crisis will persist.
• She points out that land value is often overlooked as a critical factor in financing and suggests collaborations to leverage land equity to benefit affordable housing projects.

[44:33 → 48:58] Energy, Independence, and Utility Models

• The discussion shifts to energy challenges on Maui, including the island’s high electricity rates and the potential for renewable energy solutions.
• Lucienne refers to Hunter Lovins and the Rocky Mountain Institute’s model for the future electrical grid as a decentralized network where utilities act more as managers than sole providers.
• The idea is to enable distributed energy generation—solar, wind, etc.—and provide financing and infrastructure to support off-grid or hybrid energy systems.
• Lucienne advocates for strengthening, not destroying, the utility company by redefining its role to manage a more resilient, flexible grid.

[48:58 → 53:50] Youth, Leadership, and Social Movements

• Lucienne reflects on the digital age’s impact on younger generations, noting their intuitive ability to navigate complex information landscapes and advocate for change.
• She draws parallels between contemporary youth activism (e.g., climate protests) and past social movements such as the Vietnam War protests, emphasizing the power of collective action over time.
• Lucienne calls for unity among environmental, social justice, and equality movements, underscoring that clean air, water, and fair representation are interconnected issues affecting marginalized communities.
• She encourages people to be active participants in democracy rather than passive observers, stressing the importance of solidarity and community support.

[53:50 → 56:34] Final Thoughts and Encouragement

• The interview concludes with Lucienne expressing gratitude for being honored on the “Walk of Honor” at IKKAU studios, recognizing her community contributions.
• She reiterates the importance of citizen involvement, reminding listeners that everyone counts and can make a difference, no matter their age or background.
• Lucienne encourages hope and persistence, emphasizing that positive change is possible with engagement and collaboration.
• Jason Schwartz closes by urging listeners to watch Lucienne’s “Crossroads” show and stay informed on local issues.

Key Themes and Takeaways

• Water Management: Urgent need for integrated, actionable water policies focusing on conservation and reclaimed water to sustain Maui’s growing population and protect resources.
• Environmental Litigation: Controversy around Maui’s injection well lawsuit with calls for dropping the suit and cooperating with state agencies to comply with Clean Water Act requirements.
• Housing Crisis: Critical shortage of affordable housing driven by market forces, lack of cohesive policy, and inadequate public-private partnerships; innovative decentralized infrastructure solutions could alleviate costs.
• Energy Transition: Shift towards distributed renewable energy and utility models that manage decentralized power generation is necessary to reduce costs and increase resilience.
• Community Leadership and Activism: The importance of informed, engaged citizens and leaders working together to address social, environmental, and economic challenges.
• Interconnected Social Justice: Environmental equity intersects with broader issues of gender, race, and political representation, requiring unified movements.
• Hope and Empowerment: Despite challenges, there is optimism that collective action, better policies, and technological innovation will improve Maui’s future.

Summary

This comprehensive interview with Lucienne Danai on “The Neutral Zone” touches on critical Maui community issues, especially water resource management, environmental law, affordable housing, energy policy, and civic engagement. Lucienne’s decades of experience and community activism provide deep insights into the complexities of local governance and the need for coordinated, forward-thinking solutions. The conversation emphasizes the power of informed citizens, collaborative leadership, and innovative technologies to create a sustainable and equitable future for Maui.

Transcript

00:00

da 25mm the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz would like to thank Maui Arts and Music Association tree makers Foundation of Maui for their support since 1991 hundreds of television shows and their maui arts and music comm website they have champion self sustainability on Maui the neutral zone is heard live Mondays at 11 a.m. and replayed Saturday at 7 a.m. on kak u 88.5 FM the voice of Maui good morning everyone it’s 11 o’clock on Monday September 30th here at the neutral zone we have a terrific guest today

00:42

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] hello everyone good morning this is Jason Schwartz I am the host here at the neutral zone Maui neutral zone comm kak you 88.5 FM on your dial also you can find it on Facebook live we’re on Facebook live right now and afterwards at Maui neutral zone calm you can find this show with my wonderful guest or the last 60 shows because we keep them all up there and they’re on youtube so you can’t miss us we have a guest today that I’m very excited about I want to say

02:06

I’ve waited 25 years but I think it’s more to have Lucienne Danai on a show with me Lucienne welcome to the show thank you it can’t be 25 years well you know I I know you show full disclosure several times with me yeah when was that back in the old days when I was running for office Oh way back to OC I don’t even remember look at that 6 2008 get a little bit closer if you can just severely is that is that better that’s good yeah it’s good ok Lucienne among other things if people know ikkaku Maui

02:43

Community Media television they would know Lucienne because every two weeks she has a show on Tuesday even in the evenings 7 to 8 p.m. called crossroads and how would you describe your show it would be you say well she’s a little bit of everything I call it community conversations but the topic could be music art authors politics are important nonprofit events helping our keiki helping our elders helping our homeless policy discussions the most common thing that that comes up for me is someone

03:26

will talk about someone on Maui and I’ll go yeah I had them on my show I’m in my eighth year I’m finishing up my eighth year weeks so I’ve interviewed a lot of people a lot of people yeah and then occasionally we do special shows where we will focus on a topic we’ve done during the political season we’ve done candidate forums with just like one office all the candidates for one office myself and a co-host various co-hosts and just get a little bit of you know in-depth time on that particular seat

04:03

and those have been just wonderful experiences both for the candidates and for the crew and for myself and whoever my fellow interviewer is so it’s kind of whatever we want to make it my crew gives me suggestions about things to do the public gives me suggestions and I come to staff gives me suggestions and then I have ideas so it’s a it’s a smorgasbord and afterwards they can find your shows are easy to find oh yeah they’re almost done Vimeo at the ikkaku website okay ikkaku org and we’re on channel 55 so the shows

04:41

play after their film live every other Tuesday there’s a live show and then it plays several times during the week and plays again as a tape showed the next Tuesday 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. and then a couple more times and then I do a new show so people run into it if you’re a channel surfer and you look at ikkaku my shows are on fairly frequently they’re on three or four times the road well and I’ve been sound like I have the same routine of the places shows are on because I have my show here and it’s

05:15

interesting because you cover such a myriad of things but what you bring to every show is you and I want you to know I am no Luciennene she’s only like 33 now so I know her since she was a younger girl for at least there it’s about 30 years I know 30 years and I have always said just always and I still feel it that you have so much to offer the county of Maui in the state of Hawaii just by and what you are and your experience and your outlook and your approach you could be co-host this for my show because ours

05:52

is the neutral zone it’s anything but neutral and you are eloquent and knowledgeable like today for example where are you going after the show I’ll be going down to the County Building and the water committee the VA committee waa i committee is going to be hearing comments about our water use and development plan so I’ve been tracking this plan oh geez since like 2003 so what’s that like almost 18 years of 17 years yeah and I’ve read many different drafts of it and I read the newest draft

06:30

which is over a thousand pages and I’m swell comments on behalf of the Sierra Club so today I’ll be at 1:30 on ikkaku testifying at the county councils any important things that our audience can take some snapshots now oh yeah in terms of this plan you know it’s one of those things where most of us are too busy to think about these huge concept you know plans for our next 25 years but then we wake up one day and go when did we decide to do that so I I have some digestible versions I think in a

07:12

nutshell the comments I wrote were let’s look at water as one water in other words we have different departments now managing wastewater we have another one for stormwater we have another one for potable water in Honolulu they’re all managed together and because of that they’re really planning ways to better and more efficiently use the potable water we have is a limited amount and so we don’t want to use it to create for instance gardens of Eden in deserts like at the Wailea resorts unless they can

07:47

provide their own water well they would be happy to use reclaimed water or we don’t have a strategy to provide it to them last week I had a guest you may want him on his name is Ted Bowman from tsunami products and they take water from air and they’ve been very successful in homes and all the way up to you know five thousand gallons and then that’d be very interesting yeah of course and if people could make their own water that would be a lot less pressure and expense the the systems

08:16

like you know exploit water resources and treat water and everything and then we don’t have to keep very kind we don’t have to take it and ship it anywhere you can create it where you use it yeah if we have power and we have water we can then leave all our open space open and we can build on things we said we couldn’t build on well see that’s a conversation that isn’t even on the radar in our radar that’s why I had them on God and this this water use plan buried in the fine print is you know if

08:46

we could work with our residential customers and reduce the demand by 8% which Honolulu has done for years it’s in their water plan that it’s our goal to reduce by 8 percent and they do and then they get more population and they reduce by 8 percent because they they need the same amount of water for a growing population they have water saving devices and things in the home to help do they have water saving devices they have incentive programs so we have that variant in our plan but then when

09:15

you read all the things that we’re planning on doing that is like barely kind of mentioned it’s like oh yeah and then maybe we could do some water conservation whereas if you actually you know read the research that could create 9 million gallons of water a day that’s that’s a huge that’s it’s what the whole upcountry system uses for instance so by having a policy and a action plan to get towards that policy which is being done we hate Honolulu but it’s being done in

09:45

Honolulu and they’ve done it for years yeah well so why not us so now you just mentioning it here’s one take home I hope that if people hear this and please mention we have people that we know that could be influencers of them well I’ve been reaching out to council members and and uh you know I’m happy to meet individually with any of them I probably will at some point try to do this but this idea of coordinating our efforts to manage water into one water so that we see the reclaimed water as a resource to

10:24

replace the potable water that we need for for drinking I mean we give lip service to this and all of our plans we don’t have a strategy a budget a timeline we’ve done plans that say how it could be done but there’s not the commitment that in the next five years we’re gonna do this part the next five years are going to be completed with this part we really need to be operating on that level because that’s how things get done they don’t get done by the same concepts being repeated for 30 years I

10:54

just read the 1990 plan it has so many of these same things in that we never did them even though we had a water plan in 1990 and had all the same good ideas but there wasn’t a plan to actually implement those good ideas I used to say when you were running and then way back when I was running you can go left or you can go right they’ve gone left and they keep going left you know we have any influencers that are in the council now and in in the bodies that can make these changes happen well you think so

11:24

my particular council member shainsa Nancy represents the Hana district where I live in the the Hana district out in hue low yeah he is very very responsive to anything that has to do with good water management he’s Hawaiian this is part of Hawaiian value system Hawaiians are raised you know by their kupuna to think of water as really a shared and precious research resource it’s built in their value structure so he is very tuned and he’s turned to me a number of times to you know ask what I know about

11:59

what’s going on with this and what I know what’s going on with that so I’m very appreciative great of having that communication outlet and there’s other people on the council chair King is really a person who likes action plans and you know being from a business background which is my background to guess when you’re from a business background you kind of expect to have a beginning in the middle and then and actually do things you know rather than have reports and studies and my kind of

12:26

things it’s like so I think chair King is pretty motivated to during her you know term here on the console to see things go from theory to actions yeah I’m loving it we had both of those guys on sha Shan was here maybe a month ago even though we talked about water in a holistic way but we’re still separate one of the things we’re talking about is that injection well thing here we are when is the Supreme Court case and if the if the county console actually does what the county I mean if the county

13:03

corporation council does what the County Council has voted on and said that they want the county to do which is withdraw the case um they need to do it this month right wise it’s scheduled for the I think 6th of November right uh yeah and so this issue of the mayor versus the council and who has the power where does all that coming from well it’s hard to know exactly what’s motivating the mayor you know I like mayor Victorino he’s a nice guy I think he’s sincere about a lot of

13:34

things but I just think that the information that he has been given about this is a very limited view of what will happen what could happen and what needs to happen he says he’s committed to fixing the problem and investing in reuse and that’s wonderful but we have heard this from two previous mayors and it doesn’t always work out that way in fact I’m hoping someone just tracks all the money that’s been appropriated for upgrades to sewage treatment plants to allow more reuse and see you know how we’re doing

14:09

on that because it may be that our plans weren’t that well thought-out and money was appropriated but either it couldn’t be put to use because you know the thing that was planned couldn’t be built you know whatever it just be nice to have a simple version of that story because it gets buried in the budget process and most of us don’t have time to track that so I’m hoping that there’ll be some person who just loves to do research it just dedicates themselves to finding out

14:35

what’s when for the last like 10 years yeah we’ve been hearing it so if you’re out there and you’re dedicated following this kind of research we want to know yeah it’s true you thought I mean I would think I also like Mike Victorino I wonder what this is about if you were being environment environmentally responsible and you you act locally but we have to think about all of us together I don’t really understand this isolated decisions in court for this case it’s unbelievable I

15:07

have actually read the friend-of-the-court briefs that were submitted by other towns cities states Indian tribes I mean some of them are heartbreaking please you know do not support the County of Maui’s petition our little town is suffering from polluted water from a mind the only way we have to control it is if the law of the land is that the underground waters can be said to have a connection to the Clean Water Act this is what we’ve been counting on this is what we’ve been working with the EPA on don’t pull the

15:43

rug out from under our feet I don’t think the mayor knows that no one else no well now we give him a chance maybe we’ll send them this clip but you know I mean honestly he has pretty healthy staff that could and probably can read so many opinions that have been out I just you know after hearing from Bruce Anderson in the Department of Health where basically he was begging the council he said you know he couldn’t come out and say don’t send this to the Supreme Court because you know that was

16:14

kind of above his pay grade he wasn’t authorized by the governor to say that although I’ve heard privately that the governor is very concerned of the the nationwide president that sending this to the Supreme Court could make but what Bruce Anderson from the Health Department said is every county should be recycling as much of its treated wastewater as possible let’s just find the proper permit that works get the get the process going and work together on this now what part of this the mayor

16:47

didn’t hear I don’t know so this is where you get to a point where you say okay my quick Doritos sensible guys got great staff assist with yo I don’t use the word graph because that’s not who’s benefit who benefits by this being this way that our budget somehow is going to be impacted he has been told that we will face Miranda’s fines both the the Department of Health has said we’re not interested in fines were interested in working with you on a solution the mayor received a letter that I was

17:23

cc’d on from the former a former member of the Honolulu City Council Stephen Holmes who worked on wastewater issues in the 80s and 90s who said oh you think you have problems we had huge problems we didn’t get fined at all what we did is have to come up with workable solutions and a timeline that is what the Department of Health and APA wants kind of records you can do huge fines but but in in reality what they want is compliance so let’s you know let’s work together for comply I would think that

17:59

that would be understood especially now with all the conversation so again am I asking too specific a thing who is benefitting by Mike Victorino staying in his position is benefitting by that nobody well and what not to my way of thinking I mean I will say that there are very big money interests and they are polluting industries um I definitely want to see the interpretation change of the Clean Water Act so this is not a new extension of the Clean Water Act the Clean Water Act has covered underground flows for 30

18:35

years and there have been landmark cases and there have been um you know adjudications based on it it’s just that in particular an injection well for Hawaii has not been covered injection wells have been covered but in other states so that this idea that oh man this is just this big expansion and we just can’t let it happen nationwide that is the talking point from the mine associations the fracking and oil association no one like that is a Hawaii interet maybe we could say they have interests here but we found in today’s

19:14

like kind of all connected world that when you have localized issues that could then be a benefit in other regions money can pile on I mean look at some of these election races in Alabama where people are contributing to both candidates from all over the United States because it’s considered the The Clash of the Titans you know do the Democrats win or the Republicans win do the progressives win or the Conservatives win and this may be one of these things that’s quietly being done because what Maui is doing at the

19:51

Supreme Court and there were two cases and Maui’s case was chosen the other case was not chosen so Maui’s case was chosen for whatever reason perhaps the implications were broader but it was the case that was chosen by the court to hear of the – from the circuit court from the federal appeals court that had conflicting outcomes so there were three court cases – were the same conclusion was reached that the Clean Water Act does cover underground emissions if if if you can show positively that the effluent reached a

20:34

federally regulated body like a river or a stream or an ocean and so if it’s just going underground and you can’t prove it reaches anything the Clean Water Act doesn’t cover it so most of the things that the county has said that they’re just terrible things that could happen like cesspools and things they’re just not regulated that way and you’d have to prove a particular cesspool reached a particular place and and then even then cesspools um the epa wrote a letter back when

21:07

Obama was president that made it clear that cesspools are not regulated that way they’re regulated under a different part of the water clean water Federal Rules and so that’s kind of just a scare tactic mr. dorsen put that to rest so I think if there are these interest groups they are doing what we see nationwide you know taking information and twisting it and giving half facts and then making it sound so believable and so scary giving this to I mean Mike Victorino has a group of people yeah that a part of our community

21:44

I don’t think I’ve heard anyone anyone say that we should continue the lawsuit and yet we have all of his advisors are saying if the console is saying it so yeah but I mean getting to our core console or why’s our core council doing this I mean and look it’s a mystery and they’re still building how about they they’re building on South Kihei Road if they don’t have a moat as their front driveway what is that going on so you know the roads all the problems yeah so redevelopment is us in a tsunami zone in

22:18

a high-risk zone it’s like we should be retreating from those beaches not putting more stuff so I wonder the long run wants to expand and fill in more open space that’s there that’s absorbing water I mean it’s you know money sends things in different directions than good planning quite what else can I say well I think you eloquently said it I hope that our audience will call Mike Victorino and you know group there and let them know hey please get in I want to say get on it please let the

22:55

conversation forward now the mayor does not have to order the core council the council can act they work for the council and the mayor so they could act but if for any reason he is like kind of pulling strings on the sidelines going Corp counsel you don’t have to act you know which is it’s what’s being reported in the press that he’s telling them oh no no you know this has to have my approval too no one can find any legal basis for that but of course by the time it is decided in the courts

23:29

might be too late to pull the cord so I was in the paper just yesterday you know but again I keep going back to the why maybe I just have to park that but why I have I have no proof that anyone from outside has reached out to anybody on Maui but let us just say that people on Maui are part of national organizations and there’s the national league of small businesses perhaps the small business league has taken a position on this particular issue at the Supreme Court and perhaps they’ve communicated to our

24:05

local Chamber of Commerce and perhaps local Chamber of Commerce people I have met with the mayor to express their concerns about how much this is going to cost and how much is going to fall on the taxpayer and you know it could be anything but those are in essence smokescreens because sooner or later you need to deal with the problem anyway right and if you can do it in a proactive way as been offered and encouraged by Department of Health it’s like I I just don’t really yeah I have to I have to say that you know for the

24:35

mayor to say we’re putting money in the budget we want to solve this problem and not to have the specific you know desire to work with the Department of Health after the outreach was made during the council meeting which you know core council was there his staff people were there they heard what was said it just seems a little phony to me you know it’s a talk is cheap like drop the suit and and get working on the solution basically well you have a show coming up when tomorrow I do I was with a couple

25:14

of reporters I do well I hope that you’ll somehow bring this issue up I’m sure you also know we are actually focusing on another issue although I’m sure will wander about a bit yeah Axl beers from Maui time and Susan halas from Maui watch will be on my show tomorrow and they’re both Wailuku residents and they’re really concerned that we’re kind of having a whole remaking of Wailuku as part of this new parking structure they both support there be more parking and being a parking structure but all

25:49

the other rezoning and other things that are going along with this they have been doing like a lot of in-depth research I have followed it a little bit but I’m really interested in hearing you know what they are finding that’s what my just was about is so great it gives give citizens and and very knowledgeable people like these reporters a chance to share things that they know with the broader community well we’re gonna go to a station identification and our sponsors I’m here with Lucy and Dan a

26:20

host of crossroads woman extraordinaire in so many ways Lucienne and will then be back in just a little bit the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz would like to sincerely thank David Bryan for his support David was founder and head of school at Lu Road School in Santa Monica California and as the board chaired the Ojai Foundation and on the board for brave new films the neutral zone is heard live Mondays at 11:00 a.m. here on kak you 88.5 FM the voice of maui and again on saturdays at 7:00 a.m. as well as on TV

26:58

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27:33

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I’m thankful for being able to take care of you my dear mom for taking you to your therapies for understanding that sometimes you simply want to be alone roles change without us noticing that’s why AARP gives you the information to provide even better care for your loved one visit aarp.org/denisse a concept do you have something to say but can’t find an outlet did you know that ikkaku offers a service called open mic here you can come in and make a statement on any topic you want and it’s

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free to play a song you wrote recite a monologue do a funny dance comment on a recent event the floor is yours come speak mine for free appointments are available Mondays and Wednesdays between 1:00 and 3:00 call eight seven one five five five four today to reserve the spot hi there we are back I’m here with Lucienne today I’m Jason Schwartz on the neutral zone Maui neutral zone calm you can find all these shows later and you can also find them on Facebook live now you can find them on youtube you can

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find them everywhere and store near you but truth is Lucienne is so knowledgeable and subject I was saying we may have mentioned it to these reporters about this injection wells you’ve got another issue coming up with them about the Wailuku deal we have so much stuff going on now I guess the council is doing exactly what you said Kelly King and others there are leading a charge toward making significant changes and provements that have been out long in the waiting I think I agree it’s a breath of fresh air and it’s not like we

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haven’t had good people on the console before sure had some people that did a lot of good in fact was very sad to see that Danny Matteo passed away yes I worked with him very closely on a number of issues and what a fun guy I mean he kept his sense of humor he was a he was a very directed guy he got stuff done but he kept his sense of humor throughout some pretty tense things and he was there with Pat Kawano before that said he’s been involved in things for so long yeah he was Pat’s aide and I met

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with him when he was Pat’s aide and then when he was the council member and he you know and I got to know him off hours too because I ran for office several times and all the candidates travel around together to gern community events community forums you have a lot of time to spend just meeting people’s family chatting and danny was an outstanding person I’m gonna miss seeing with the next election he was there standing I know three or four elections and just you know hands on presents and anyway

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too young too young blessings to him and also the family you know with so many issues and things to go you know I’m trying to think okay what if I was sitting on a show with Lucienne Denis what would be the most important things I’d want to talk about we talked about water I got my little plug in to the fact that we can get water from the air and there should be no issue about water there should be a lot more looking at that but I’m in the 30-year mortgages and communities develop in different ways things that

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are way outside of what’s going on now mm-hmm but now it’s now I that’s what gets you it’s like okay if these things are available now why are we waiting to know about them well I think there’s so kind of a lack of information connection and a lot of times you see that communities that actually have really good solutions to things have reached that point by bringing together those with the pieces man then setting a direction and taking that direction and then you see solutions

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emerge from that but if one person knows about this and the others don’t and then everyone else thinks we should you know we have to go in this other direction it’s like it just takes so much longer to understand that we have choices I mean I’ve dedicated my life to doing research so that we have choices about things you know it’s not always that maybe the things that I think are best are going to be the choices that people make but at least people should know that there are choices that it’s not for

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growth poorly planned growth is not inevitable it’s not just like well that’s what happens exploitation of resources without thinking that there’s a tomorrow is not inevitable there’s other ways to manage our resources that are being done all over the world not just in the US we just need to look at the full range of choices and this information you bring up is like you know part of a field of choices that people might have yes well and the good thing is both you and I are doing

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we’re here with media trying to get some of these ideas out engineering it’s it solved more problems than a lot of other things just putting together an idea with a group of people that could actually take the idea and make it work speaking of good people when just on our break here Lucienne let me know that she was going to be I want to say immortalized it’s at the right choice of words that Sidewalk went outside here at ikkaku community media and kak u radio studios we have I sort of like a mini

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Grauman’s Chinese yes with people that have contributed to our Island at the decision of whoever of the powers they be but we have a sidewalk of Fame outside it’s called the walk of walk of honor or some walk of honor now and you’re gonna be one of the the inductees I guess I don’t know whatever into this cement are you sure I’m completely surprised to find out about two weeks ago I got a nice letter from a kakuzu saying that myself Hannah Barnard who’s a close friend and

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a wonderful community activist and advocate for our our oceans and and our people and ke alii Rachelle of course is a you know a legendary and iconic performer here and a person who gives a great deal to the community and has his halau and he does a lot of outreach on cultural issues and other things too and just helps people you know he’s a person who shares his gifts and then felipe aki from over in Molokai II who’s a longtime cultural practitioner teacher mentor kupuna over there when this event is

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when on November night Saturday the 9th of November come on down they have a big party down here it’s it’s kind of in the afternoon and think it they do it like well it depends how fast the cement set so I was gonna say the guy who set this imagine many people talking for a while because the cement isn’t ready it’s too runny to put your feet in I’ve attended virtually all ceremony I know many people who’ve been honored in the past and and this you know a really it’s it’s

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a very unbelievable honor to be a well and as public and I think it is truly earned honor you’ve been just such an incredible part of our community thank you for all that’s gonna remain and everyone’s gonna know my shoe size no that’s right size 11 that’s very funny how are things going with in your opinion again I’m just pulling from the air housing have you seen any solutions that we’re gonna adopt that are gonna handle this incredible need for housing affordable housing I’m keeping that as a separate

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issue yeah what are we gonna do here well the fact is that Maui has always had a lot of building going on but the building is usually motivated by the higher end market because we have a reputation of this amazing place where you can retire and live you know by the ocean or looking at the ocean and you know I have many many dear friends here who’ve come here in the last thirty years to retire maybe they bought a little condo 20 years ago and finally can we try a tire and they they contribute to the community they

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volunteer to help the churches they volunteer to help for you know community restoration projects they volunteer to help in community service situations however and they deserve to have housing here but we have not had the formula that creates housing in enough demand or enough supply for the average person who lives here who basically it has to be affordable quote-unquote housing because the average wage here is not very high no it is aware of oh I’m always amazes me when I see when I see the average

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income for a household and I translate and I was in the mortgage because he translated into what you would qualify for yeah it’s just extraordinary to then hear the rules of what affordable housing is from FHA and the loans and we are just in crazy crisis here do you think in my opinion I think that we could do just this thing about the water that I mentioned about to be able to not take large swaths that might still stay in Ag and in other uses and use land that wasn’t even in the dreams of people

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building until we could have our own power and water I think we could build things this guy was talking about $60,000 for a home Oh to have your own water supply no the whole house everything oh really yeah so when I hear those things and I hear nobody knows about it I he just moved here and he’s there opening water company called Kalani water that when you’re done with your water that comes from the air you can put the bottle back in the machine and they grind it up to make new bottles here locally Wow and

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they give you the refund and use it to the new water coming out well you know when you when you think about housing solutions because it’s more than just having water or power it’s you know where do the kids go to school you know how far do you have to go to the library the supermarket that this or that so it does make sense if you spend time in Europe which I’ve spent a lot of time in Europe you see how people after hundreds and hundreds of years have kind of found a rhythm you know they develop areas of

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pretty tight clusters and then they have like a more countryside in between and then another tight cluster and that seems to be kind of a quality-of-life indicator that you know where people can have enough places to live but also not just build everything into concrete would it be fair to say that in Europe there are none of these massive developers that build a thousand of the same thing uh no there are some do they do it with sense time now we’ve come wondering like what you were speaking

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about there there are some massive developers oh there’s a lot more involvement with government in Europe I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Sweden I say sweetness known as quote unquote a socialistic country but what it means is that government gets involved in things and for instance Sweden during World War two did not have any kind of public transportation system except some you know old buses after world war ii they decided that they were going to create a subway system in stockholm which is 14

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islands they did and it’s excellent and it goes all the way up and down you know the Swedish because it was decided that was a goal it was a plan made it was done it’s up not like our plans that are 30 years old yeah very defensive’ took to ride but it subsidized it subsidized people pay higher value-added taxes and they get services and you know some people are disgruntled about it but a lot of people just the system works so we don’t have to go all the way to a socialistic system but I think like one of the next

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big ideas that needs to happen and I know Vince pigoil who I don’t always agree with on everything but he’s a former director of Housing and Human Services was County Council member and has built affordable housing he said the county needs to secure while we have these big land companies that are just getting rid of land a couple thousand acres in a good location and over time a contract with people who want to build an affordable product get them financing so that they can sell it at an

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affordable rate and provide some basic infrastructure so that those costs are amortized just not by one developer but by the whole public sector and that way you would have you know an area that could have housing that would be affordable for a range of but portable for people who work here and if we just leave everything to the private sector there are some really good people in the in the private sector I serve on boards with several of them people who want to get this job done and are working on

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projects and are delivering projects but your average large developer will say anything and then it changes you know five years down the road I just attended a hearing at the land use Commission I remember when 60% of it was going to be affordable that’s what mr. Ryan Churchill on behalf of Maui land and pine told the Planning Commission told the land use Commission and I testified that you know they needed to put this in concrete they did and now it’s been sold and the new developers coming back in

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and says you know what it’s going to be 25 sent affordable cos that’s what the county requires now so we don’t have to do anymore this is supposed to be providing affordable housing for two large developments you know and it’s crazy and they’re probably going to get it because everyone’s going all poutine they can’t afford to build affordable housing I mean I just say find the people who know how to build this and make it pencil out find out what the blockages are are the

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blockages are the financing get lower cost financing pool the county has millions that they put in banks invest it somewhere where they’ll give low-interest loans for part of the the corpus for affordable housing you know put our money where our mouth is isn’t it also true that the private people while use a and B as a simple name they have land or now they have land land it’s free to them land and that has a value yeah and if you were going to a bank that land has a value and so it

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could all be they could be partners and everything going on and with just some finance I don’t even say tricks just in the financing world this financing could happen and you wouldn’t even have to ask the county well you know I had Vince big oil on my show last year a couple of times I’ve been show along with Stan Franco and Mike Foley up I’ve had you know Planning directors around I’ve had Stan San Franco who set up the first homeless shelter and affordable housing programs for the county back thirty

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years ago Vince big oil who has tremendous experience and affordable housing and what Vince said is that um 30 40 years ago we had mayor’s who had the will to create housing for Maui’s people Jeff and they went to large landowners and they said Sieber a and B Maui land and pine you all have resort projects in mind or development projects in mind that’s fine I’m happy to support those I need a hundred acres each from you for housing for our people we didn’t know our people are getting something from this and they

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all gave the land and all this housing was built the only problem was it only had to remain affordable for ten years and there’s this tug of war where people you know your house is is the main way investing in a home is the main way that wealth yeah but if it’s subsidized there needs to be kind of a different model you gain something from it but of course you didn’t have to pay full price from it so what you gain from it is not the same as the sky’s the limit you can you know you got it at a

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hundred and thirty thousand and you can now sell it for five hundred thousand that doesn’t work for the public good it may work for your family but it doesn’t work for the public good so if you have subsidized housing after 10 years and you want to sell it it needs to sell at an increment above what you know the the price was she paid for it not at the full market value because otherwise you can build and build and build and we’re never saw and we’ll never solve the problem because it will

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always be more profitable to sell it at the inflated market rates well I hope we’ll see some of the things that you’re talking about happening I’m I’m going to probably put this guy in touch with you to get him on yeah talk with him because I’m well I keep hearing about you know I don’t know maybe because I have been out there I’m doing things with in medical field and was looking at hydrogen we got a little time left got 10 minutes and just came upon this gentleman he was up

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there at the Vince Mena and the Hawaii farmers Adam really he was up there and they I saw and I also saw it in Hawaiian homelands there was a demonstration they set up and they’re gonna be trying to do project up there what you need of these pilot projects what you call proof of concept you know it’s uh when people see it can be done then the next question is okay could it be done on a larger scale if it works for like one house could it work for a whole subdivision you know would there would there be any

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constraints to if every house did it would it still work out so these are good questions I always used to like the excuse electric company gave me I don’t know why this came to mind then they said well we have to have customers you can’t keep taking people off the grid yeah yeah people will be independent of the grid well I keep thinking that’s at this point in our island it being off the grid is like the thing to do would help keep the systems that are there functioning I don’t think we need more

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money we changed the way the who’s in charge and I don’t know I maybe I’m going off the subject to stop me if I will but I know Jesus another very important subject I mean you know it’s like the energy rates here are the highest in the nation so I was very talking about it and of course we have abundant you know natural resources for energy I think that what I remember Hunter Lovins saying from Rocky Mountain Institute a number of years ago in is that the most farsighted electrical grid

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systems are planning transition from electrical providers to electrical managers they will be providing a grid to help distribute energy that is produced more in separate regions rather than only at one consolidated treatment plant you know or not treatment plant uh you know generating right and I imagine they could also be the financing through noodle energy for homes and businesses where yeah yeah they could be the ones and energy managers I was on an island you don’t want to destroy your utility

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company want to strengthen them I would think well I think you want everyone to have the right role and you know rules do change uh you know we can all remember back you know like when we were kids there was a you know certain things that we just expected to be done a certain way there were three TV stations and if it wasn’t on one of those three TV stations it wasn’t on well that’s not the world anymore so we have different worlds now you know information overload I you know I keep wondering when kids are growing

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up and they are there’s just so many ways for them to look who is making the decision on point where they’re looking at now the young kids seem to be sharp though I tell you I I wonder I work with a lot of young conservation minded people on different boards and different organizations and they have an intuitive way of navigating these kinds of things and I think it’s you know they were born in the digital age and just like if you were born in a saline community you’d know a lot about

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currents and winds and things where someone else just comes in and it’s just like nothing they can read well our digital natives I think can can read those currents and uh it’s like they’re very good navigators you know and like that little girl little girl said at the UN what are you doing leaving us don’t plan it you guys should be ashamed of yourself speaking the truth and in others it is sure and you know when older people say it it has meaning they’re speaking about their children or grandchildren but I

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think when the generation that’s going to have to live with these decisions start speaking out it’s what changes things I mean I grew up during the Vietnam War era which you probably did too and our generation just said you know we’re being sent to fight and die we don’t think this is such a great idea and you know it started shifting things but it took time but it did start shifting and we’re and they’re very important I guess you’d say pivotal time nationwide with our leadership oh

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yeah yeah well leadership I mean it’s like are we gonna believe lies or you know spin or people going to dig down and get the truth and and I don’t think it’s confined either party I think both parties are willing to spin things or you know not just even to parties I think many different political institutions are willing to spin things for their own you know advantage but it’s time to look at what really works for everybody and not just what works for the few or what works for those who

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are pulling the strings of power you know or can get to the get to the hearings and get to the meetings I just went to a large CR Club conference and the watchword is equity you know the environmental movement is over a hundred years old in this nation and you know other places as well and it’s just you know time that all the different campaigns for social justice and equality of gender and equality of opportunity join together because um they’re really all concerned about the same thing it’s like the people who

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don’t have clean air and clean water are people that also are having problems probably getting their vote to count they’re being pushed around perhaps by their local authorities and being given water or air to breathe that substandard because you know they don’t have any power to push back so it’s time to stand together well and then take your feet out of the cement so I know that we’ll make sure that the cement isn’t too soft and grab your feet because you’ve been you’ve been such a leader for so long it

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is truly a really beautiful honor and something you really deserve and and you’re still kicking you’re still cooking you have shows coming up very interesting shows coming up we do too but then you know this is very fun this is a new age and hopefully more and more people are recognizing that it’s time to stand up and be part of this thing and not just be passive and sit back and think someone else is going to say it or do it it’s us it’s true I mean if people don’t have a lot of time to read things

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or go to hearings at least they can cheat off an email or you know paste something on Facebook and just so solidarity and there’s a lot of that happening now it’s just a beautiful thing to see all the people who’ve come together to protect Mauna Kea to stand for important things in our communities so it is a time of people unifying who eating up and standing together and supporting one another you know which is the most human of traits is to is to care and support from one another well if you’ll run for mayor

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I’ll vote for you well I’m gonna be happy to help other people run for mayor I think there’s some excellent people they can run for mayor you would be a great support staff I understand I will be there supporting I’m I’m in the kupuna years now I’m past the 70 mark so I think it’s anywhere well it’s a good thing well let the younger people take the leadership roles and we can definitely provide the the advice and and what do they call the institutional knowledge yeah we’ve got about a minute

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and a half left if you had a minute and a half left what things do you want to be sure you share with our audience you have your own platform but I mean house were sitting here anything that just jumps out is yet important you’d like to share well I just want to say to people who are listening that you are important you know you as a citizen as a resident as a comma I not here of Maui as a person who loves this place whether you were born here you came here you are important and you count and don’t don’t

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despair that we’re going to hell in a handbasket and no one can do anything about it there’s some great people in the county council there’s some great people in the legislature there’s some great people even nationwide I’ll have your back and we hope to see the results of things as they unfold so don’t give up hope and we’d love to see you start carrying the torch and being part of what we’re doing and being part of it because you’re our future leaders in fact you know we’re

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like you said with advisor roles are appropriate at this place in what we’re doing but I think the young need to feel involved and feel like someone’s going to give them some you know opportunity to move into this the young people definitely should the voice that is out there it’s making a difference nationwide and I love this t-shirt I have it says you know nobody can do everything but everybody can do something well thank you all for joining us we are here and we are so thrilled to

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be with you in the neutral zone with Lucienne today I’m Jason Schwartz we will see you next week on the neutral zone Thank You Lucienne watch Lucienne show and listen tomorrow crossroads Aloha [Music]