TNZ 240311 2 Jason Schwartz sits down Councilman Gabe Johnson to share Current Events at his Council helm. Gabe’s leadership of key committees over now his second council term shows his seasoned delivery and future concepts learned and receptivity on a mid afternoon break in “Ho’o’ponopono Zone”, the NEUTRAL Zone…It’s Anything But Neutral ! Talk of Housing, Agriculture, Olowalu, the Reef… refreshing, relaxed conversation.
Summary & Transcript
Introduction and Overview of Council Workload
- The interview begins with Gabe Johnson, a Maui County Councilman representing Lāna‘i. He emphasizes the intense workload and complexity of council duties, contradicting the misconception that council work is part-time.
- Gabe shares his recent experience drafting a bill to redefine “Agriculture,” “Farming,” and “Farm Labor Dwellings,” which required navigating multiple planning commissions over 4-6 months.
- He highlights the significant time investment needed for even incremental legislative changes and contrasts typical single-issue bills with Omnibus Bills that reform multiple code sections at once, such as his work on affordable housing.
- The conversation stresses the steep learning curve for council members, the necessity of collaboration with experts, and the public’s limited view of council members’ behind-the-scenes efforts.
- [04:11 → 13:25]
Olalo Temporary Debris Site Controversy and Central Maui Landfill Eminent Domain
- Gabe recounts his vote against designating Olalo as a temporary debris site due to environmental and cultural concerns. He describes Olalo Reef as ecologically critical, seeding multiple shorelines and supporting tourism revenue.
- He argues that placing a toxic debris site near the reef risks billions in tax revenue and damages the ecosystem, outweighing FEMA’s funding incentives.
- Despite his opposition, the site was approved, but Gabe succeeded in securing water and air quality testing every 90 days to monitor potential contamination. His attempt to define “temporary” duration legally (e.g., 30 days vs. 30 years) was unsuccessful.
- Gabe explains the county’s ongoing effort to acquire a privately owned parcel adjacent to the Central Maui landfill through eminent domain. This land could serve as a more appropriate debris disposal site, enabling the county to phase out Olalo.
- He emphasizes that the eminent domain action is for the public good—to facilitate debris cleanup and support residents’ recovery—not a land grab for profit. The private owner’s plan was profit-driven, focused on construction debris disposal.
- Gabe challenges narratives that government action is nefarious, contrasting it with widely accepted foreclosures and evictions by private entities.
- On Olalo cleanup, Gabe acknowledges the need to remove existing toxic ash and debris and expresses concern about possible environmental hazards from mixing toxic and clean soil. He stresses the importance of not delaying removal efforts.
- [13:25 → 21:03]
Debris Management, FEMA’s Role, and Containerization Debate
- Gabe candidly admits he is often “last to know” about FEMA and administrative decisions, highlighting a communication gap between elected officials and administrators.
- He notes that FEMA and the EPA largely dictate debris management policies and funding, and the county must operate within these constraints.
- The idea of containerizing toxic debris on-site—to contain contamination regardless of where debris is eventually taken—is discussed. Gabe indicates this approach is not currently adopted by FEMA or the county, primarily due to cost concerns.
- He stresses the enormous financial scale of cleanup efforts, with costs running into billions, and fears the county could be financially overwhelmed if FEMA funding is insufficient.
- Gabe also points out the complexity of FEMA’s reimbursement processes, which are often bureaucratic and inaccessible for many citizens. He advocates for lower barriers to entry for aid programs to better serve affected residents.
- He encourages private philanthropy from wealthy individuals to supplement government funding but remains realistic about the challenges.
- Gabe expresses frustration with media portrayal of environmental activists and the urgency of protecting Maui’s reefs and environment.
- [21:03 → 28:01]
Crisis Response and Councilman’s Immediate Actions Post-Lāhaina Fire
- Gabe recounts his swift response the day after the Lāhaina fire, personally ensuring ferry operations could resume by salvaging key equipment.
- He coordinated with shelters, Red Cross, FEMA, and faith-based organizations to address immediate needs like beds and supplies, overcoming siloed efforts.
- Gabe stresses that there is no manual for disaster response, but leadership requires quick, commonsense action to meet urgent community needs.
- He describes working long hours, physically exhausting himself, but emphasizing the importance of prioritizing people’s immediate welfare.
- The interview underlines Gabe’s hands-on, compassionate approach to crisis leadership.
- [28:01 → 38:50]
Comprehensive Affordable Housing Reforms
- Gabe served as Chair of Affordable Housing and transformed a comprehensive affordable housing plan into concrete legislation rather than letting it remain a report.
- He identifies two key challenges in affordable housing:
- Defining “affordable” in the context of local wages and housing prices.
- Resident preference ensuring locals have priority over mainland applicants.
- Gabe highlights the problem with federal funding opening housing eligibility nationwide, leading to long waitlists. To address this, he authored Bill 111, which:
- Implements a resident preference lottery system, ranking applicants by years of residency, with birth-and-raised locals prioritized.
- Pulls four names at a time to ensure readiness and opportunity, rather than a single random pick.
- To tackle the high cost of construction (often $500,000 per house), Gabe’s legislation:
- Sets a maximum housing cost at 33% of the resident’s income to ensure affordability.
- Uses county subsidies to “buy down” the cost, reducing prices by about 20% (e.g., from $500K to $400K).
- Enables buyers to qualify for federal mortgage programs based on affordable payments.
- Gabe underscores the importance of returning to the traditional model where residents start with affordable small homes and scale up over time.
- On alternative housing models:
- He supports mixed-use developments, exemplified by the Kū Kai project combining commercial and residential spaces.
- Notes zoning and building codes are often outdated and restrictive, hindering innovative housing types like tiny homes or prefab units.
- The county is awaiting completion of a Title 19 code rewrite, which will modernize permitting and building codes to allow diverse housing options.
- Gabe is optimistic about the new Director of Planning’s openness to legislative fixes without waiting further.
- [38:50 → 46:28]
Agriculture Committee Initiatives and Support for Farmers
- Gabe chairs the Agriculture Committee and recently passed a bill clarifying the definition of agriculture, including exemptions for unfarmable land such as gulches or culturally significant areas.
- A key success was updating rules for farm labor dwellings, allowing laborers and their families to live on farms legally and safely with permits, rather than in unsafe, unpermitted structures.
- This policy aims to attract farm workers by offering housing, helping to build a sustainable agricultural workforce.
- Gabe discusses the importance of “bonafide farmer” applications to prevent abuse of agricultural programs by non-farmers, utilizing income thresholds and interviews to verify genuine farmers.
- The agriculture committee also covers economic diversity, environmental bills, and public transportation, integrating these areas with farming initiatives.
- [46:28 → 48:43]
Environmental and Transportation Efforts (ADEPT Framework)
- Gabe explains the ADEPT acronym: Agriculture, Diversity, Environmental bills, Public Transportation.
- Environmental initiatives include a plan to manage R1 recycled water better, using it for irrigation and green belts to reduce wildfire risk instead of injecting it underground where it harms reefs.
- Public transportation efforts focus on the county potentially purchasing the Maui-Lāna‘i ferry, which would enable access to federal infrastructure funds for upgrading harbors and expanding ferry service.
- Gabe advocates for multimodal transportation systems including ferries, bike paths, and walkable towns to reduce reliance on cars and improve connectivity.
- [48:43 → 53:05]
Personal Passions and Paid Family Leave Advocacy
- Gabe shares a personal note about his daughter’s internship with a federal park and his advocacy for Paid Family Leave at the county and state level.
- He emphasizes the importance of paid family leave for both newborn care and elder care, citing its impact on infant mortality and family stability.
- Despite it not being a direct council responsibility, Gabe commits to pushing for this policy change at higher government levels.
- Gabe also reflects on his own experience living in low-income housing before election, reinforcing his commitment to fight for working-class and “little folks.”
- [53:05 → 57:35]
Closing Remarks and Leadership Philosophy
- The host praises Gabe for his genuine, down-to-earth leadership style, dedication, and responsiveness to community needs.
- Gabe expresses appreciation for media’s role as the “fourth estate” in holding elected officials accountable while advocating for a diplomatic, constructive approach to dialogue.
- He stresses the importance of operating from abundance rather than scarcity, ensuring the community supports its most vulnerable members despite budget constraints.
- Gabe calls for empathy by “walking a mile in someone else’s shoes,” highlighting concerns about youth leaving Maui due to economic challenges.
- The interview closes with mutual respect and optimism for Gabe’s ongoing public service and potential future leadership roles.
Key Quantitative Data and Legislative Highlights
| Bill/Initiative | Description | Impact/Outcome |
|---|---|---|
| Bill redefining Agriculture | Clarifies farm definition, exempts unfarmable areas from agriculture requirement | Enables practical farm operations |
| Bill on Farm Labor Dwellings | Allows laborers and their families to live legally on farms with permits | Improves farm labor recruitment and retention |
| Bill 111 (Affordable Housing Preference) | Resident preference in lottery based on years of residency, ranked selection from 4 names | Prioritizes locals, reduces waitlist frustration |
| Affordable Housing Subsidy | County subsidizes housing to cap cost at 33% of resident income | Makes homes affordable (~20% price reduction) |
| R1 Water Recycling Bill | Redirects treated wastewater for irrigation and green belts to reduce fire risk | Environmental protection, wildfire mitigation |
Summary of Environmental and Infrastructure Projects
- Olalo Temporary Debris Site: Environmental and cultural concerns; opposition to site use but secured monitoring measures.
- Central Maui Landfill Eminent Domain: County acquisition for debris disposal to replace Olalo, emphasizing public service over profit.
- Containerization Debate: Not currently used due to FEMA funding limits; advocated for better containment of toxic debris.
- R1 Water Reuse: Plan to use treated wastewater for irrigation and green belts to mitigate fire risk and protect reefs.
- Ferry System: Possible county purchase to unlock federal funding for harbor improvements and transportation expansion.
Core Concepts and Themes
- Public Service vs. Profit: Emphasis on decisions benefiting community recovery rather than private gain.
- Legislative Complexity: The slow, detailed process of local lawmaking requiring expert input and multiple approvals.
- Crisis Leadership: Rapid, hands-on response to emergencies with coordination across agencies and nonprofits.
- Affordable Housing Innovation: Combining policy, subsidies, and resident preference to address housing affordability.
- Sustainable Agriculture: Supporting genuine farmers with housing and regulatory clarity to boost local food production.
- Environmental Stewardship: Protecting reefs, reducing wildfire risk, and managing waste responsibly.
- Transportation Modernization: Investing in multimodal solutions to improve island connectivity and resilience.
- Community Advocacy: Fighting for working-class residents, low-income families, and long-term residents amidst demographic pressures.
- Government Transparency and Accountability: The role of media and open dialogue in ensuring responsive governance.
Conclusion
Councilman Gabe Johnson articulates the multifaceted challenges facing Maui County—from environmental protection and disaster debris management to affordable housing and agricultural sustainability. His approach combines pragmatic legislation, community-focused advocacy, and active crisis leadership. Despite systemic and funding limitations, he remains committed to walking alongside residents, promoting innovative solutions, and holding government accountable. This interview provides valuable insight into the complexities of local governance and the ongoing efforts to balance recovery, sustainability, and equity in a rapidly changing island community.
Full Transcript
00:00
[Music] hello hi everyone and welcome to the neutral zone I am here at a different hour my guest this morning on March 11th was going to be Gabe Johnson our councilman from Lana’i and you know he’s a hard working guy and he couldn’t make it but he’s a hardworking guy who recognized the power of coming before you and me to say hi in an informal way Gabe thank you for taking this special time I know you got to be tired because you’re already put in a full day so uh thank you for being here with me it’s my
00:52
PL pleasure Jason thanks for having me and uh yeah you know we’re getting busy before budget season budget season is coming up so a lot of meetings going on but definitely one of the things is I don’t want to you know operate in Silo here and not tell everybody what we’re doing so the fact that you’re we’re gonna have a a nice talk on Maui neutral zone is good because people want to know what’s going on you know and I’m here to share the word I should let you start you know I mean before we started I
01:21
mentioned I remember when they called this a part-time job and I thought that was funny because this is anything but a part-time job you’re working all the time it seems yeah that’s true um you know I just wrote a bill about uh the definition of Agriculture and farming and definition of farm labor dwellings and that one Bill had to go through the lay Planning Commission the Maui Planning Commission the molai Planning Commission and each time it went through the planning commissions it took time it
01:53
took we got feedback and then finally it came back to the the committee so just to do this one bill you know four to six months just to get one build CH and that’s just changing the definitions of what we Define these things as so doing big things like one of one of the things when I was chair of affordable housing I wrote an Omnibus Bill on how we do uh the process of uh the affordable housing and that Omnibus Bill means you can do a lot of different changes in the code instead of just one by one sometimes we
02:28
say let’s just change one thing in the code at a time change the bill one thing at a time Omnibus bills do like a several changes and you put it on the floor and say we’re reforming the way we do affordable housing so that’s more uh it’s a heavy lift but at the end of the day I think that was a smart use of our time and a tremendous amount of time you spend I want to say with experts in the field because I’m sure you’ve become more expert but you don’t profess to know it all and the fact that you’re
03:00
open you’ve got to see a lot of people to be able to really understand some of these you know I I say they’re all easy everyone says I want housing why don’t they just build housing why don’t they just why don’t they just and then you say wait a minute wait wait wait first we have to change the definition so I have something that I can do and then I have all these steps to do you know it’s like an amazing amount of work I’m I imagine when you started you had some background in what council does but once
03:33
you sit in the seat it’s I I remember years ago when I I was running that I we were children together Allan ARA was still running he hadn’t won any seats we were sitting in the night and he was you know talking real comfortable then I saw him a little bit after he got the seat his eyes were all R and he was reading till all the hours and I’m sure you also the learning curve to be effective like you say is a gigantic thing and thank you I mean I can’t even thank you enough I know that
04:11
you and all your compatriots spend way more time in energy than the few minutes that we as public see you at these meetings you know you don’t come in empty like if before we start talking about anything else I have this thing in my craw I know that that olalo situation for the the toxic dump site temporary went uh you know mostly it was do it couple of you you and ujin from up country said no that’s a really crazy issue right now in the news let me get this off my scre right now in the news
04:57
they um talk about the fact that the Central Maui landfill site that we understand still isn’t owned or controlled by the county is still in the process of being acquired I guess yes but maybe I guess eminent domain means no matter what you would think of doing with it we want it we’re taking it isn’t that what that means in this case well okay so there’s a lot to be discussed there Jason so uh sure as far as my vote on the olalo temporary debris site I voted no against making that the
05:37
temporary debris site and you know that’s the debate we had in Council and folks presented their side of the story and I presented my side and why I voted no on it you know I voted no because you um the it’s too close to the reef the mother reef is the one that se The olalo Reef seeds all of you know it seeds Southern mokai Shores it seeds it seeds the Eastern layi Shores the kioku coast the longest fringer that we have is all seated through olalo um there is if if it was just the the idea of cost well that FEMA will pay
06:19
for it I need a better reason to put a a a reef endangered you know they often put a price tag on on the reef which is kind of absurd but the fact that The Reef draws in millions of tourists dollars because they swim in the crystal clear waters and the Beautiful Coral there is if you want to put a monetary uh you know value on it then then they do and and they can but if you’re saying that well FEMA will pay for this temporary debris site but at the risk of a billion dollars of of tax revenue from
06:55
how important the reef is that’s one way to kind of balance it in their mind but it doesn’t make sense to me you know so but at the end of the day I had to do what was right and I listen to the people of generational knowledge of olalo and how they didn’t want it I used to swim that Reef I dove that Reef I did llama Lama on that reef and I would just I would not like for that to be the temporary debris site so I voted no against it there were other there were eight other sites considered and and
07:25
here we are now move that that I lost the vote and they is become the temporary debris site at least I made amendments during that discussion I made I amended it so that they would test the water quality the air quality every every 90 days at the at the site to see you know is it leaking is there leeching is there something going on is it polluting the surrounding area I and then I also try to make them Define the term temporary that didn’t pass but I was still fighting to say what’s your
07:58
definition of temporary 30 days or 30 years you know that that’s really the concern I had now fast forward to what’s happening now and the imminent domain of the parcel adjacent to the uh Maui Central landfill it’s not it’s just across the street uh that is a privately owned parcel that the county has been trying to buy from aamb for many years and now uh someone else bought it but we’re trying to imminent domain it because if the county has that place to to put the debris of the fire in then we
08:38
can stop putting it in olalo right because that can immediately happen it’s not we’re going to wait for the olalo site to be full and then transfer it we can actually start skipping olalo and I I think that makes more sense now I guess Jason let’s get into the idea of imminent domain all right that is uh not the it’s not a very popular idea and I I’ll address the concern that some folks are saying that oh that’s the government’s plan is to take our land imminent domain the you know that’s not
09:13
necessarily true in fact that’s not true at all the the re the the reason why we want an imminent domain that parcel of land is for the greater good the reason why folks bought that parel land to create a unique uh landfill was for profit it was profit driven let’s let’s call spade a spade that that dump site or that that landfill site that is a private site their plan is to have construction debris going there and they would just say this is where you put your old concrete this is where you put you know
09:50
like when there’s when someone gets a new roof on their house they would take it those debris and put that old roof into that uh site that the county is trying to imminent domain well doesn’t that sound familiar look at look at lahina a lot of debris there that could go right in there but we won’t be doing a profit driven decision it’s a it’s a service based decision we need to clean Lina so people can get back into their homes get back to normality if we we we can’t there’s no other like we looked
10:23
around at the other sites and this was one factor that the community wanted put is in Central Central Maui okay so the idea that what drives us is a land grab is totally false what’s driving us is to PR provide the service that people need so that they can get on their land to clean the land that they’re on in lahat town theah koui areas all over there Pam Mana all those homes need to be cleared and where does that debris go I wanted to skip olalo and go into that Central Maui landfill that the county is using imminent domain
10:57
for now the the idea that um that we’re we’re trying to do this for nefarious reasons I I’m going to push back on that the banks take the little guys homes all the time in foreclosure there’s been billionaires taking lands from Hawaiians through Quiet Title there’s been uh landlords evicting people out of their rental homes for the top dollar FEMA money and no one bats an eye right but when it comes there’s some eyes batting but the thing that you’re talking still and you guys I was not one
11:38
nor most people I’ve heard so far don’t really feel that you’re doing it for nefarious reasons I totally get that it’s for the public good right you know that’s yeah and I you know I can’t even imagine that uh people that wouldn’t see that you really they still are complaining h i i put myself in the shoes of the people wah Kuli the people of L Luna and say we need to get on our land ASAP to put myself in the shoes of people who are trying to make money and start a business sure I understand it
12:14
but don’t you think the highest need goes to the folks who lost everything walk on Mile own their shoes right the other guys who wanted to build a a private dump to make money off of because they can take uh construction land garbage they’re trying to make money and there’s other ways in our community that there’s other parts of the land there’s other ways you can make money but what other option do the Lina folk have they have no option they want to get on their land ASAP so that’s why
12:45
I I voted to support the imminent domain of that uh parcel land let me ask you quickly question because sure you said here we are we’ve got this and we can move quick once we do that I know that there’s already been a lot of activity in olalo you’ve probably seen I if not I can show you where a quantity of Ash and stuff gets there and then they mixing it with perfectly great perfectly normal dirt and now you got to move all of that and you mix toxic dirt with more you’ve made more work to try to when are they
13:25
going to do it I mean I’d hope that you’d stop bringing there and now get I gotta go turn off my phone be sure sorry about that no I mean as much as we stop taking it to UU they still have to get it out of there what they’ve already created I correct somehow will be worked into the plan and not wait until till the end to clean up Olo because I don’t know uh what it’s going to take but it’s not going to take very much for the Overflow in this supposedly perfect system they
14:12
set up there that has already been seen could be a catastrophe way sooner than has been projected by the experts so I hope that that doesn’t get put on a back burner making sure it’s out of Alla wall because the people that I’ve met from olalo that are culturally concerned that’s one but the scientists are the ones that really when I watch the scientists I had wished and hoped that you guys would have had a presentation I don’t know who’s seen those presentations but I’ve recorded
14:50
what they did on that Saturday presentation of scientists to bring it to the public here on our show to show them different aspects of what could be done the one thing that I still don’t understand even now is containerizing why haven’t they put it into containers right near on site so that no matter how long it takes no matter where you bring it it’s contain why isn’t that happening containerization you could take it off Island you can take it to Central Maui you take it wherever but that step I
15:25
thought was an important step it doesn’t seem to be in there why why FEMA has their own policies and procedures that they’re doing and they worked with the mayor’s Administration to be honest with you Jason I’m last to know as a lawmaker right I’m a council member and my strengths are make making laws and lawmaking I’m not an administrator so the administrators worked with FEMA on on the processes so I that’s the so our mayor must also feel I don’t want to say obli but let’s say FEMA and the
16:01
EPA are the they’re the ones that run the deal they tell the mayor what he can and cannot do yeah um I don’t know a little bit less uh than that but more like they’ll tell you what they’ll pay and won’t pay right we’ll pay to put it in here but we won’t pay to do it that way so then the count gets put on the hook for paying these things and under understand that even though we’re a very wealthy county is All Things Considered this is some of these Solutions are billions of dollars
16:38
right billions you know imagine though container that we’re going to DC to ask for billions of dollars right for and it’s just it will bankrupt the county on some of these Solutions and I don’t know about that particular solution Jason again because I I’m kept out of loopop a lot of the times you I hear what the administration is doing through the Press guys like you that come and tell tell us you know a lot of times and that’s not the best way to do it but that’s really the lack of
17:09
communication is there and I I stick I stick with what I’m good at I can change some laws I can you know fund some projects and programs and I can use the bully pulpit when it’s time to use the bully pulpit but really administrators are going to administer that’s the way I look at it know I see so when all that Stu came you know the name Eddie Garcia probably he’s Eddie Garcia and then they spent all this money for a report I don’t know who should have looked at it but some of the things that they were
17:41
proposing would already have saved zillions of dollars and would have contained the problem no matter where you put the an no ma even if you wait 10 years if you have it all contained then it’s not going to impact you and then you can bring it out and create building material and power things that maybe you haven’t like I say you haven’t even really seen them to the level where you could but there are some pretty good Solutions Jason that’s why and you probably saw in my agenda like what okay
18:14
I can’t tell FEMA what to do they’re Federal and I can’t tell the administration what to do right but in my committees I had several presentations on biochar um the the um way we can use types of teas to help uh uh eliminate a lot of the toxins in the soil and we had a vigorous debate and I invited FEMA to come and say here look at what these scientists are doing with biochar look at the guy what the guys did up country in Kola what how are they responding to this and so I brought them to the table
18:53
to let them understand other Pathways right but at the bottom at the end of the day it’s FEMA who’s going to say we’re going to pay for this and pay for that right so that that’s really the system but I least showed them that this is a way that our community would like to move forward with and now having had those um present presentations in my committee John Q public who has a parcel of land in wah Kuli or a parcel of land up H Luna can go and put biochar themselves on their land Having learned
19:27
that there is a way to take the heavy metals they they connect to biochar so that’s a good way that you can clean your soil by just putting some biochar in your soil now we wanted the FEMA to do it we wanted them to pay for it they said no can but it doesn’t change the fact that in my committee we educated the public that they can do it themselves on their own parcel land if they wanted to and there are people who are going to go and opt out of the system and not ask for femom I mean the
19:55
stack of paperwork to be to to get into the female programs as everybody knows can be a barrier for some people you know they just don’t want to deal with all that paperwork and they might have the funds to do it themselves it’s not the best solution to tell everybody you have to you have to have all this documents and all these uh paperworks in order because of um fear of be getting uh the government’s afraid of getting fraudulent claims you know and it sounds like there’s government mistrusts the
20:29
common Fe people or mistrust the people who have affected by the fires and in turn the people affected by the fires mistrust the government so it’s not a very healthy system we have to have low barrier low uh simple ways to get people in the system so they can receive the help and that’s just something I’ve been trying to Advocate forever but again FEMA is gonna feema they’re going to do it the way they they’re uh their processes are and a lot of times it’s done by law they have to do it that way
21:03
so I’m just don’t I just get very concerned that we’re in an island and there should be some way to and you tell me there is a way to stop but don’t expect to have anyone pay for it because that’s what FEMA is here for and you know if you can find Jeff Bezos and Oprah and Larry Allison to replace all that money F might have given us hey then we can save Maui otherwise we’re tossing a coin and doing things the way FEMA says even though we know it’s maybe not adequate anyway I don’t mean to be
21:39
kind of up on that one I’m still I still would like to think that we can get to private citizens who will say stop we’ll pay for it we recognize that this is you know if you were Larry Ellison and you own an island and now there someone’s going to destroy you I just don’t know why these guys don’t think it more important than a way of giving back and again I’m a loudmouth so you might see me asking him but if I can get him on the show we’ll see meanwhile I still want to give you the floor on
22:17
other things but olalo is just doesn’t seem to want to go away because our environment and destroying of our environment and destroying the reason people come here and destroying the people at the same time with toxicity seems to be a less than perfect choice and I’m hoping that the transition to the Central Maui landfill will happen but in my mind we’ll like to then ask can we have all that toxic stuff and you’ll you’ll say yeah you can have all you want and then we’ll come take it and
22:52
process it and show that we can take things that would have been a landfill and and waste and get rid of the landfills and get rid of all this the Technologies are here we’ve seen historically I’m sure you know EPA doesn’t make decisions quickly and these technologies that I’m talking about have been in use and are in use all across the country they’ll come and have have you come out and see it and show you hey it’s working but that doesn’t stop the EPA from still being that
23:26
roadblock so thanks for making it clear I hope that the public and all those that have access to people that have major private resources will see that there’s valuable technology here that could well set an example here save Maui and be an example to the world again I just am mindblowing to me that this is not getting Global attention but it’s you know they all say oh it’s just environmental weirdos it’s those extremists who’s extreme when we talk about something that’s going to wipe out
24:08
a Hawaiian island what part of paradise when you get rid of the reef you have toxins see so I I get weird with the way the media likes to spin things and I never thought I was actually you know running to be on a seat like yours thank you God I didn’t get it I don’t know I’m white here is that why probably came from Once you started working on coun well um yeah who who would have thought that um we’d be going from disaster to disaster right we just got out of covid now we’re going to another
24:46
one it’s almost like what’s next right but you you got to understand Jason that that is the job right that is the job that is the job you can’t sit there and say well I wasn’t expecting the whole town to burn down no one’s ever done this there’s no playbook for this but that is the job when times of Crisis leaders got to lead and yeah I I know right after the fire um I went to okay the day after the fire uh I called up Expeditions Ferry and I said How’s your boat they said one of them sank uh we
25:21
can’t get in there to get the ramps the the passenger ramp that connects to the ferry and we don’t know if that’s gone but we could run out of Mal if we had the passenger ramp so I went in and I this is the day after the firewood where National Guard was not there it was just MPD and I asked to go through and get into the burn Zone and go down to the lahina harbor and I showed up there with the captain and the aluminum ramps that could totally have melted we’re just sitting there with rubber tires
25:55
untouched we put it on a flat bed we drove her out to Malaya and we had the ferry running up in the next few days W so that’s um that’s what I did the day after the fire and then we I started doing the touring of all of the shelters what do you need where what are you short of have you tried this have you try I know was going on the phone I was I went to so many of the of the um the hubs the the shelters worked with a red cross worked with FEMA worked with the faith-based group you know we went to
26:28
all the churches and everybody was working as much as they could but they were kind of working in silos right this shelter needed beds this shelter had too many beds right so we were coordinating that and working around there’s no playbook for this there’s no like I would you know the day two days before I was thinking about other things on my agenda now I’m looking for blankets and pillows for West SMY folks who lost everything right that’s that’s when it’s time to kind of Shake It off and go all
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in and just know that that’s what you’re required to do there I there was no I wasn’t sitting there and being like well I don’t know how to do this you just you just look at there and say what’s common sense though that shelter needs beds this shelter has too many beds let’s make this happen and just went down what and whatever was on the the list I was doing it you need shampoo here and you don’t need shampoo there that’s what we were doing one down going and going and
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going I almost fell down I was working so hard but at the end of the day that’s what was needed and you can talk about what some people expect of the job but that is what it’s expected when times of Crisis leaders got to lead it’s just that simple that’s what we did absolutely I mean and I hope to say that like you say that was only one crisis Pro you started one two terms right you’re in your second term now yeah yeah so you probably from the first day walked in recognizing there were some
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crises already in place and I know you have been so busy doing good things I’d like that you could run down a list and if it’s a good thing it could have been that Gabe Johnson’s the one that did it sounds like you’ve been busy in like all areas of stuff can you give us a rundown of what’s going because I know there’s just so much going on oh my goodness what okay I wrote it down housing is that a good area to look at I know you you have longer range programs way before this most immediate
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crisis and it was handling that housing I always thought housing was one of the biggies yeah so okay for housing there’s a lot of things I did for housing as chair affordable housing I was I was uh my first ter term I was chair of affordable housing so at that time it just so happened to work out really good politically was that the comprehensive affordable housing plan just got published this was a plan that the county spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on to say what do what is the plan how do we need to act you know we
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need a full plan on how do we tackle housing right and I just took that plan and I turned it into legislation which is what you should do sometimes we just do plans and we put them on the Shelf it just sits there no I sat there and I had I waved that plan in front of the council members and said we paid for this and we’re going to create some legislation out of it so I went down the list of all the recommendations the biggest thing when we talk about affordable housing the two most common questions is when you say
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affordable housing what do you mean by affordable right that’s first off is a $700,000 house considered affordable I don’t know not not with these the wages that we’re making second thing they say is yeah affordable housing well who’s that for it seems to be that locals when affordable housing project comes up the locals and get the short on a stick it tends to be Mainland folks getting in there I’ll give you a spe specific example over here on L we have the H kapuna and that’s a senior H senior
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citizen living like you can live in there and they have like a two-year waiting list why do they have a two-year waiting list well because they took Federal Monies and that opens that unit those units up to anybody in our country so Mainland Cuna can apply for that housing unit and they can get in there so instead of just a few hundred people who are trying to get in the housing on lenai that are lenai residents we open it up to the whole country so look how long the list is right so that’s the
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thing is they uh residents who’ve been here a long time who’ve put their hopes on these affordable housing projects they keep seeing the system that keeps burning them right so they so that’s why I wrote Bill 111 Bill 111 is a gives you the preference a residential preference it asks you how many years you’ve been a resident in Hawaii right or in Maui County then it says okay it ranks You by how many years you’ve been a resident are you born and raised and you’re at the top of the list are you uh been here
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like myself about 20 years I’m mid- tier if I’ve only been here like a year or two I’m at the bottom list but it still gives you a chance to get in that unit it still makes it legal right because if you take Federal monies then you have to open it up to everybody right so the way we had to do it was write Bill 111 where you know we do the lottery for affordable housing right you pull one name out of the Hat oh okay that’s your name you get the house right but if that person’s not ready then they they go and
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they you know redraw the hat so what we did now the bill 111 says we’re pulling four names out of the hat and we rank these four names by how many years you’ve been a resident you’re born and raised you’re top of the list if you got here like me about 20 years ago I’m mid tier if somebody’s only been here one or two years they’re at the bottom list then they ask that person at the top of the list are you ready oh well actually I’m not ready I you know recently changed jobs or whatever reason okay
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then they go to the second person are you ready H okay I’m not ready and then they they go down to the fourth person that allows every person to have a chance you know statistically and make that legal right so that’s one of the things we answered that question it let put residents who’ve been here longest they put give them a preference the second thing is we talked about uh the price of the houses right how can how can I make affordable housing when the Builders of the homes tell me they cost
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500 Grand to build a house in today’s uh Market 500 Grand just for the house but people are working at ABC store they’re working in the mall they’re making 30 grand a year that’s that’s out of their range right so what we did was we wrote A bill that said okay the county is going to subsidize the county will subsidize and you can’t sell that house higher than 33 33 I think 33% of your income so that’s like a paycheck if you get you know if you get paid weekly that’s a little bit more than a a week’s
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pay one week of your pay one week’s paycheck right little bit more than that so that seems like a doable price for most people right you can’t charge me more than I can pay 33% of my monthly income so then the answer is the question comes is well who’s going to cover the rest of the cost the developer tells me it costs 500 Grand to build a house that’s when the county kicks in our affordable housing fund will buy it down will buy down in house so that our folks can reach to it so not only does
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it allow them to reach for that price but allows them to get those those uh those those mortgage programs that are available for people because Banks won’t give you money if they know you can’t afford it looking at your income right but by making it say it can’t be more than 33% of your income then the banks will give you those uh Federal uh Federal Mortgage programs and that’s how that’s how most first-time home buyers get in that’s how they do it that’s how your generation did and the older
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Generations did they had houses that were affordable you buy your little house first and then you build up and then you can buy a bigger house when your family expands right that’s the old way of doing it so we we went back to that to try to really bring these houses down at what people C can actually for right so now if you start looking at some of these affordable housing projects that are coming out you’re going to look at those price ranges and say wow that’s significant the bill that I wrote dropped the prices
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by 20% a $500,000 house now becomes a $400,000 house and that’s significant savings to our community now what happened to that 100 Grand difference that’s when the county kicks in and puts in 100 Grand difference that’s how you do it um just that feeling of what is Affordable even 400 Grand I mean the numbers that we’re talking about just crazy have we looked at alternative housing programs that aren’t quite as I want to say Mainland structured housing a lot of the housing things that we have going on in
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the world are a little bit overbuilt and things could happen here different kinds of alternative housing plans I saw this thing there about cluster housing and I was going to explore have people been trying um any kind of Alternatives has been many the project the KU Kai project was a really nice project that had the mixed use right I like the ideas of the first floor being like a a barber shop and a and a accountant shop and the second floor being apartments right and that’s that’s kind of how a lot of
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people like that you know they like to you can walk to go get your haircut you you don’t have to get it saves off on traffic it’s it’s it’s a it’s a good way to um make true right well this some I don’t know why that is such a New Concept when every city in the world has it it’s like why are we making this like such a gigantic dream I you know I don’t understand why why is that are they holding on to something I don’t understand why wouldn’t that be easily
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accepted right off the bat and uh build more integrated choices of housing I’m talking really that that’s a really good idea I’m not saying no to that that I would think would be an easy go has that been a problem to get that kind of a thing okay well sometimes the okay so now that project was a great project we want to support projects like that right so if the zoning allows for that kind of use then sure double thumbs up however sometimes our zoning code our building codes all of these things are archaic
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they’re old school they need to be updated well I don’t know if you been hearing about this Jason but the county has been trying to rewrite our title 19 which is all that permitting all that we’ve been wanting to rewrite it for years now and right and we paid these folks to do a rewrite so that’s why I’ve been kind of many of the council members we’re like well let’s wait until the rewrite is done and then we’ll start putting in bills to fix the code so that we can do these things we can have uh
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tiny homes on Wheels and short and uh we can have uh not necessarily prefab because some people get a bad wrap on that but just new creative ways that isn’t just single family home with manicured lawn and that’s what America you know dreams of right that’s I think that’s the old way of thinking but our building codes are kind of geared towards that so to Pivot the way we do our building codes to P pivot the permitting process to Pivot all that I want to do it but right now I’m waiting
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for them to be finished with this uh redesign this audit of the way of the whole thing but we have a new director director bstone and she seems to be open to having us writing some legislation now like instead of waiting because we can wait I mean we’ve been waiting I I’ve been waiting longer you know by two terms that’s that’s two that’s four years of waiting for this thing to be done I’m ready to go let’s do some changes and so that’s why uh I I I look there’s hope there’s hope that we have a
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new director who’s got a good Vision on on what’s really holding those type of ideas up and and we’re ready to change them so there’ll be some bills coming down the way Jason mark my words you were talking about your agriculture committee uh why don’t you give us a chunk of what’s going on with you there well there’s a lot of things going on first uh we just passed out of my committee the the definition of agriculture this was more a little bit of a specific thing where 51% of your of
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your farm must be be doing some typ of agriculture 1% but there’s some Farmers that their their land is on the edge of a Gulch and they’re not going to farm on the edge of The Gulch that’s unfarmable land right and then and then let’s say there’s a Hao on your land they’re not going to farm over a Hao or some kind of uh Hawaiian uh uh old part old old important uh structures so we’re gonna we’re GNA exempt that and we’re going to clarify the language on that so we
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clarified that the second thing we worked on was clarifying this very important part of our code that I wish more Farmers would take advantage of which is the farm egg uh the EG labor dwellings where you can put your laborers on your farm right now as you probably know Jason there’s people just they’re living on some person’s land in a tent and just farming and they’re they’re enjoying the beautifulness of the nature but they’re probably not living in a very safe uh building you know so we try to
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make it so that we can make uh make it so that way you go and get the permits and you make it allowable so people don’t have to hide like I I don’t want people to be afraid of the county and have this unpermitted structure and the roof fall on their workers heads we don’t want that so we’re trying to clarify some of that language one of the things that we did was as the bill was stated it says a farm labor dwellings you can only have a labor living them but not their family that doesn’t make
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any sense I if I had a 10ac Farm what five acres is what you need if I had a 5 Acre Farm and I wanted to hire a worker especially now postfire and I said look I’ve got a Hana for you but only you can live in it that person’s going to be like I have kids I have a wife I have somebody else I can’t then then as a farmer as the code was written I couldn’t hire them I couldn’t offer that to them now we struck that we said the the laborer and their families can live in them you know I’m a single
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father I would decline a job if I couldn’t bring my child with me right so now you have the ability to say look uh I have a unit on my land five acres or more I can bring in not only the um the the farmer the the laborer but I also can bring in their family so think of like what you propose to your laborer I’m going to give you a a paying job and I’m going to give you housing oh my God I love that yes please you know like how tight the farm Farmers or how typ the market is for housing people will want
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to go work Farms now all of a sudden you’ve got a a separate industry that’s growing that’s blossoming that people want to work and then add to the food nutrition that you’re getting and that you’re getting off of the tourism dollar but it actually does help with tourism because people want to eat healthy local food and it also helps us as a community we’re eating healthy local food so all these systems start helping each other and that’s that’s the one thing I want
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I’m working in my um in my uh committee the other thing is you know it’s the Adept is the acronym so agriculture economic diversity environmental bills and public transportation so I mean I can go down each one of them and tell you all the things I’m doing but for egg I’m really trying to make it easy for Farmers to get laborers easy for Farmers to get housing on their land and also make sure that we’re not being taken advantage of by the gentleman Farmers that everybody wants to talk about like
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we all know whenever we try to help Farmers uh in any way there’s going to be somebody who’s going to try to take advantage of it that isn’t really a truly farmer right so now we’re looking at a Bonafide farmer application which is done in other communities Let’s do an interview with this person how much did you make in farming last year did you make $35,000 a year or did you only make like $2,000 are you really a farmer if you’re only making two grand what are what are you doing you know so we’re
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trying to get a Bonafide farmer application created and work on that level we’re trying to make sure that the the people aren’t taking advantage of the system but we’re also trying to make people get into the into the um farming as just as a as a career um so the next one I’d say Ad dep so D is economic diversity um I you know there’s a lot of things going on in economic diversity uh one thing that’s coming up in the summer is the Maui epic swim where some big wave surfer guys and
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Big W big water folks are going to swim around the island of layi and they’re going to make a big or I’m sorry I said lunai the island of Maui they’re going to swim around the whole island of Maui and they’re going to be dropping these water testers to test the water for chemicals right what kind of runoff from Lina fire fire is going into our reef is the water getting polluted what kind of pollutions are in there but as they’re dropping off these sensors they’re going to be raising ocean safety awareness
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they’re going to be raising environmental concerns but it’s also going to be kind of an event like I want to see somebody swim around the island of Maui that’s amazing so there’s going to be this big to-do and like a you know a big Hawaii island has the Iron Man contests and those kinds of events we we’re g to try to do something like that kind of stimulate the economy in that way and and for a good cause and if ever now is more timely it’s it’s that’s that’s very timely um the the um Ian
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Adept is uh environmental bills so so we’re working on uh environmental bills the the um I’m going to forget the acronym but basically it’s we’re working on climate change uh a plan to help us address climate change and we’re gonna maybe we’re gonna have to wait till after budget but basically do we have a plan for our our County to deal with climate change what type of things are we going to do to help us deal uh deal with rising sea level you know uh less rain uh all of these bills or I mean all
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these things are going to add to our problems of our of our environment you know I’m sure you remember Jason the injection well case and how bad it was for the county to inject uh uh R1 water into you know the the ground and then it percolated up on the reef well now the bill that I wrote is going to take our R1 water which is recycle one which means we cleaned it a little bit it’s our sewer water but we clean it a little bit and instead of putting in injection Wells we’re going to clean it even more
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and then we’re going to water um the edges of Roads we’re going to water F crops with it we’re going to water our our community so it has a green belt around it so in case there is a fire that the green belt will will will lessen the fire risk right so we we want instead of injecting it instead of looking at our waist let’s look at it as like a benefit so we’re going to clean the R1 water we’re going to clean that water till till it’s clean enough that we can actually spray it on the ground
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and have green green ways around our our community very important what uh philosophy to look at this like stop looking at these waste or in the waste that we create and start looking at as opportunities so I think that’s a philosophical change that we need to do more of um then the adapt e that’s e and then p is public transportation so uh this is a big deal for me uh the ferry between Maui and lay uh is for sale they want to they want to sell it and be done with it so I looked into what it would take for the county
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to purchase a ferry if you look at other communities uh West Coast especially they have some county-owned fairies in Seattle they have County owned fairies in San Francisco there’s place there’s communities that have look at that multimodal way of Transport not just cars there should be trains there should be planes there should be bikes there should bike Pathways walkable towns all these different modes of transportation and us being a Island community we should have fairies now the important thing about
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the ferry if the county purchases a ferry is that because the county owns a ferry that means we can reach to the federal guys and get federal funds for our infrastructure so that means a new lahina Harbor that means upgrading the Malaya Harbor that means upgrading Manelli Manelli Harbor all at the cost of the feds so we don’t have to look at local taxpayers to help us out on that and if you’ve been to some of those Harbors you know they need an improvement and Lina Harbor just needs everything right now I mean but if we
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have a fery um system that the county owns that allows us to reach up to federal funds it’ll even allow us to purchase a ferry a new boat that we could run to Mala or run to mikai if the community in mikai wanted and then that would allow their Harbor to get upgrades too so that’s a great way and expanding our Harbor systems and then I you know I ride the harbor all the time so I would definitely advocate for a bigger boat because it’s so rough but you know a little bit bigger would
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would help but that those are things that uh I’ve been working on in my in my committee um what’s a passion going on now that that uh you you’d like to and believe it or not we’ve been sitting here almost an hour you know and sounds like you have no shortage of not only answers but got a lot of enthusiasm for what you’re doing you’re really uh like I say more than full-time I’m sure that your family life is a whole different experience now that you’re working the way you are how’s everything
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going with that is that a new experience there yeah uh you know uh my daughter just got an internship at Haka which is she’s a she’s now a federal employer because remember Haka Park is a federal park right so she’s now a federal employer which she gets or a federal employee which means she gets paid family leave and I’m a bid advocate for Paid Family Leave I uh wrote a bill to the state as a county guy to say hey why don’t we start if if if Paid Family Leave is so scary for small businesses
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why don’t we start with County workers and state workers receiving Paid Family Leave because federal workers already have paid family leave so that doesn’t mean just if I have a baby I can take some time off and take care of my baby which is very important because that reduces uh infant mortality if you’re at staying at home around your baby you can they actually you you reduce the infant mortality which is so key now on the other side of that as my mother who’s aging when she gets old
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I’d like to take some time off for her I could do that with a paid family league right so that that’s why I’m a big advocate for paid family league so that’s one more of my passions Jason even though it’s not in my wheelhouse as a council member I will advocate for the state and the FEDS to do that um then you you asked about uh what are some of my other passions you know um I uh I think this coming year we’re we’re the the there’s a lot of things I think farmer farming has uh momentum you
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know there’s a lot of farmers the The Internship programs that we have are pushing out Farmers we and Farmers need three things land water and a little bit of capital and that’s what I want to help them with uh the fire changes everything as far as priorities go you know let’s talk about some of the things I I’m trying to do to help with the fir so first off is I’m I wrote a bill to Underground power lines for new uh housing projects right um it’s we we might have to make an amendment to where
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we would say new and existing because or something that we could do because lahina is not technically new but if we rebuilt back lahina and we have power lines above this follow lands with 10ft tie uh brown grass we’re asking for another disaster right right now hopefully the R1 water kicks in and we water that grass right I mean that’s that’s my mind how it’s working we’re trying to tackle in all these different ways right so the fire does pivot some of my uh passion towards making new
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bills but that’s it’s a long time coming it doesn’t you know I’ve only been on this job for about like you said three years so some of the things that the neglect that has been happening in our community for Generations it’s not going to be solved overnight you know it’s like I’m untying the knots of of bad decision making throughout the years or just this good old boy mentality that just has to go away and we have to like think of the little guy you know and Jason that
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brings me to like who I am as a person you know before I took this job and I don’t mean back in the 80s I just mean you know three or four years ago I was living in low-income housing I was living at evoli and lay so I know I recognize guys like me don’t get to sit in this seat that often and the fight for the Little Folks the fight for the common folks the fight for the working class that’s always going to be my my mission that’s always the way I’m going to see the world through that type of
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lens it’s just helping out folks who need it the most well you know I um I think I speak for everyone but I surely speak for me you are a pleasure you are just listening to you gives me confidence that elected officials come from us and have us in mind in what they do and uh besides being a good person I’m very thankful you’re there and I know this is election year and at some point when I they’re going to say oh you can’t have anyone on your show you have to have everyone running in the
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race you are welcome back with or without election anytime if there’s something you’d like to share with the public and you like a forum you are welcome here and uh there’s anything I can ever do to help you you got it thank you Jason so much appreciate you I remember when you first got elected and it was the morning after we had breakfast you know I’m yeah not really a political guy but you always stood out to me as being a genuine guy and I very much have appreciated that you maintain that you I
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would say you’re not changed you’ve only change for the better you’re a pleasure to have and um I don’t know I hope I speak for all of us I hope to see you in that seat if you want it the next time too yeah you’re gonna see my name on AAL Jason thank you thanks for the kind words uh but you know I’m gonna I’m gonna also say Jason what you’re doing here is a very valuable role here too so keep doing your uh your show and I look forward to seeing more episodes and seeing what’s on your plate because
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remember you have you know there is a certain amount of checks and balances that you have as working in your field and what is it called the fourth estate I think the Press is known as the fourth estate the make sure you know uh people who are elected you know are answering the right questions and not just um you know saying what they want to see so you feel free to and I try to do it as a diplomat rather than going for the throat you know this I hope that uh you know even those that don’t have my
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opinions or recognize I might be liberal about stuff you know can feel comfortable that I’m not GNA take their head off because I keep thinking like seems that you do on Council if we put everything up on the table we can all come to an agreement that we can all be comfortable with and move forward that’s right that’s right I don’t know if you saw my uh three minutes in the Maui news but basically the the gist of it all is that we can’t operate from the idea of scarcity that
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oh we no more money for that or we cannot afford this we’re a wealthy County and a wealthy nation and we can help the folks who need it you know we can’t be just saying uh putting squeezing the the purse strings on the little guys meanwhile letting the big guys buy islands and go willy-nilly and do any kind um so that’s that’s why I think um it’s it’s important for us to look at the you know look at our constituents help those folks who needed most look at through walk them out on
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their shoes you know what I mean that’s really what I’m trying to say is got to walk in a mile in shoes and understand that folks were bleeding our community you know they’re moving to Vegas they’re leaving the islands my daughter’s graduating class of 30 hardly any of them are here because they know the deal they know it’s hard to make a living here so we got to change that and I’m I’m here to fight for that so thanks for your time Jason well councilman Gabe Johnson it’s been a pleasure having you
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here on the show and uh for all of you listening in and all of you around the world I mean as you can see this guy if he wants it could be our future mayor I’m you know it takes leadership and I’m like you say when there’s a job to be done I see Gabe Johnson standing there you’ve really been a real pleasure to to watch in action thank you really very much Jason thank you for your words and uh everyone out there I hope to see you again next week and Gabe I it’s been a pleasure thank you and uh I
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hope now you take some time off you’ve been working working working no rest for the wicked no way all right thank you on my friend
