Maui issue advocate Tom Blackburn-Rodriguez-

TNZ- Jason Schwartz shares a current conversation with Maui issue advocate Tom Blackburn-Rodriguez. As public spokesman of varied Maui issues over 2 decades, Housing and agriculture and direction of government, long term sustainability solutions, Show # 94– 7-1–2020

  

Summary & transcript

1. 1. 1. Introduction and Background of Tom Blackburn Rodriguez

• Host Jason Schwartz welcomes Tom Blackburn Rodriguez to Maui Neutral Zone, a show focused on community values and critical local issues rather than politics.
• Tom has been an active Maui community member for over two decades, although he moved to the island in 1998. His family history in Hawaii dates back to 1870, notably with an ancestor, Reverend Thomas Blackburn, who identified the Blackburn’s sphinx moth—a large, bat-like butterfly now endangered.
• Tom served as president of the Maui Coastal Land Trust, instrumental in acquiring the last remaining habitat for the Blackburn’s sphinx moth near Wailuku, the site of a former dairy farm.
• The preserve offers a tranquil, well-maintained environment, and Tom encourages community members to visit and volunteer, emphasizing the importance of protecting local natural habitats.
• The land trust’s success was supported by key figures such as Susan Bradford, Helen Nielsen, and help from Senator Daniel Inouye through political relationships. Tom recounts interviewing Senator Inouye and reflecting on their personal friendship and shared commitment to Maui’s environment and community.
• [04:27 → 09:45]
  • • Maui’s Current Challenges Amid COVID-19 and Housing Crisis
• The discussion shifts to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on Maui’s economy and social issues, especially housing. The pandemic has exacerbated pre-existing problems and delayed solutions.
• Tom highlights the impending end of federal foreclosure moratoriums (July 26, 2020) and potential economic fallout, including increased unemployment and social disruption.
• Emphasizes that the “old normal” will not return post-pandemic, and many businesses may never reopen in their previous forms.
• The island is grappling with the tension between reopening tourism safely and managing public health risks, with growing infection numbers despite efforts like pre-flight testing.
• Housing affordability remains a critical issue: rents for small units (e.g., studios at $1,800, two-bedrooms at $2,750) are prohibitively expensive for many families.
• Tom stresses that current affordable housing projects are far below the scale needed (e.g., a few hundred units vs. a need for thousands).
• There is a call for innovative, large-scale funding mechanisms beyond incremental efforts.
• [09:45 → 13:47]
  • • Funding Solutions for Affordable Housing
• Tom advocates for leveraging affordable housing funds via bond issues:
  • Use a portion of the county’s affordable housing fund (currently 3% of real property tax revenues) as a guarantee for housing bonds sold on the market.
  • This approach could generate tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to fund large-scale construction.
  • Bonds would be repaid through dedicated housing funds and increased property tax revenues as new housing is built.
• Partnership with foundations (e.g., Liske Foundation) and investment groups could help structure such bond offerings.
• Without large-scale funding mechanisms, affordable housing growth remains marginal and insufficient to address demand.
• [13:47 → 18:22]
  • • Temporary Housing and Practical Challenges
• Tom acknowledges the existence of temporary housing funding but notes it often remains “temporary” for decades (e.g., WWII-era temporary buildings lasting 20 years).
• Challenges include:
  • Lack of permanent affordable housing on nearby islands like Molokai, where shelters do not exist.
  • Temporary housing projects sometimes appear inadequate or inhumane (e.g., small “shed-like” structures near the jail in Wailuku).
  • Lack of cooperative job programs or training aimed at involving homeless individuals in constructive community roles.
• The complexity of housing solutions is compounded by Maui’s expensive construction environment:
  • All building materials (lumber, drywall, nails) must be shipped in by barge, adding substantial cost.
  • Permitting and zoning delays can extend projects to 7–10 years, making rapid progress extremely difficult.
• Tom suggests equity-sharing models where wealthy property owners and financiers could partner with renters and owners to accelerate housing development without immediate large capital outlays.
• [18:22 → 22:08]
  • • Alternative Building Methods and Innovation
• Tom highlights innovative construction methods that could reduce costs and speed up housing:
  • Concrete roll forming for quick construction.
  • Prefab manufactured homes (e.g., Fat Mac Homes) assembled locally, offering quality and affordability.
  • Prefabrication, common in places like Japan, contrasts with Maui’s reliance on traditional stick-and-mortar techniques dating back over a century.
• The mismatch of old building practices with 21st-century housing needs contributes to slow progress.
• Tom references global examples where local materials (e.g., caliche clay and bamboo) have been used successfully for durable, earthquake-resistant construction, urging openness to such alternatives.
• He stresses the need to “walk away from what we know” and experiment with new solutions, quoting Roosevelt’s approach to trial and adaptability.
• [22:08 → 29:01]
  • • Public Health, Pandemic Response, and Social Cohesion
• Tom expresses concern about the U.S. pandemic response, contrasting it with other countries:
  • European countries banned travel from the U.S. due to uncontrolled virus spread.
  • Historically, the U.S. led global health efforts (e.g., polio vaccination campaigns), but now lacks common purpose and community mobilization.
• He criticizes the politicization of public health measures (mask-wearing, social distancing), describing it as a failure of mutual respect and responsibility.
• Notes the tragic and accelerating death toll from COVID-19 and emphasizes the virus’s indiscriminate nature across class, race, and status.
• Tom calls for community solidarity and adherence to public health guidelines to protect Maui’s residents and visitors.
• He reflects on the loss of civil discourse and cooperation in American politics and society, lamenting polarization and tribalism.
• [29:01 → 36:27]
  • • Political Views and the Need for Balanced Leadership
• Tom identifies as a center-left Democrat, supportive of progressive policies but skeptical of institutional solutions alone.
• He supported Bernie Sanders initially, then Joe Biden, reflecting a pragmatic approach to politics.
• Advocates for pushing institutions to reflect the best of society but recognizes their limitations and flaws.
• Emphasizes the importance of finding solutions that balance reopening the economy with public health protection, rather than politically motivated or popular fixes.
• Discusses the current social reckoning in America, describing it as a “day of judgment” requiring accountability and reflection.
• Critiques the division in society around pandemic responses, urging people to prioritize collective health over partisan identity.
• Encourages a return to common sense and values exemplified by previous generations, such as doing “the hardest thing first.”
• [36:27 → 43:05]
  • • Food Security and Agricultural Sustainability
• Tom stresses the need to address root causes of hunger on Maui rather than just food distribution:
  • High rents and transportation issues contribute indirectly to food insecurity.
  • Calls for a strategic plan to end hunger, not just temporary relief efforts.
• Advocates for encouraging local food production and gardening to improve food security.
• Highlights the importance of healthy soil and sustainable farming practices as foundational to food systems.
• Mentions local initiatives like Michael Smith’s work on biochar and soil regeneration, funded by grants to improve organic farming.
• Reflects on earlier government projects promoting local building materials and self-sufficiency, suggesting these ideas deserve renewed attention.
• [43:05 → 48:26]
  • • Civil Dialogue and Community Respect
• Tom deplores the decline of respectful civil discourse, noting how disagreement has turned into personal enmity.
• Calls for cleaning up divisive, tribalistic language that inhibits problem-solving.
• Believes good leadership can model respectful dialogue and cooperation, showing younger generations how to engage constructively.
• Recalls a past era in Washington, D.C., when political opponents could debate fiercely during the day and socialize amicably afterward, a dynamic he finds missing today.
• [48:26 → 55:25]
  • • Personal Reflections and Community Advocacy
• Tom shares his personal journey as an immigrant to Maui who spent a year listening and learning before actively engaging in public discussion.
• Emphasizes the value of listening to public testimonies before the county council, describing it as unfiltered insight into local concerns.
• Describes Go Maui, a nonprofit advocacy organization he consults for, which focuses on employment, housing, agriculture, water, sustainability, and cultural respect.
• Go Maui prioritizes advocacy before government bodies rather than mass demonstrations, maintaining a nonpartisan stance without endorsing candidates or funding campaigns.
• The organization has recently concentrated on increasing affordable housing funds, successfully advocating for a charter amendment to raise the affordable housing funding set-aside from 2% to 3% of real property taxes for a 10-year authorization.
• Notes that about 40% of affordable housing projects come before the council are turned down, underscoring ongoing challenges.
• [55:25 → 56:40]
• Closing Remarks
• Host Jason Schwartz expresses appreciation for Tom’s down-to-earth, no-holds-barred conversation style.
• Tom emphasizes the possibility of solving community problems through dialogue and mutual care, coining the phrase “the new normal” as a fresh, uncertain era requiring adaptability and shared effort.
• The interview ends with mutual respect and an invitation for Tom to return anytime.

1. 1. 1. Key Insights and Conclusions

• Maui faces complex, intersecting crises including affordable housing shortages, economic disruption from COVID-19, and social fragmentation.
• Housing affordability requires large-scale funding innovations, such as leveraging affordable housing funds into bond issues to finance massive construction efforts.
• Temporary housing solutions must be carefully planned to avoid becoming indefinite and inadequate.
• Costly traditional building methods hinder rapid housing development; embracing innovative, prefab, and local-material construction could reduce costs and timelines.
• The pandemic demands community solidarity, respect for public health measures, and responsible tourism to protect Maui’s residents.
• American political and social polarization undermines effective response to crises; renewed civil dialogue and shared values are essential.
• Food security on Maui depends on sustainable agriculture rooted in healthy soil and local farming capacity, not just emergency food distribution.
• Advocacy organizations like Go Maui play a vital role influencing policy, focusing on practical solutions over partisan politics or mass protests.
• The path forward requires innovation, cooperation, and a willingness to abandon outdated models to build a resilient, equitable Maui community.

1. 1. 1. Quantitative Data Table: Affordable Housing Fund and Rent Context

Item	Value / Description
Current affordable housing fund set-aside	3% of real property tax revenues
Charter amendment duration	10 years authorization
Proposed housing units needed (approximate)	~7,000 units
Recent affordable housing projects approved	Few hundred units
Rent for studio in Maui Meadows	~$1,800 per month
Rent for 2-bedroom unit	~$2,750 per month
Estimated bond funding potential	Tens to hundreds of millions of dollars

Glossary of Terms

Term	Definition / Explanation
Affordable Housing Fund	A dedicated fund sourced from property taxes used to finance housing projects aimed at lower-income residents.
Housing Bonds	Financial instruments sold to investors to raise capital for housing development, repaid over time with interest.
Prefabrication (Prefab)	Building construction method where components are manufactured off-site and assembled on-site, speeding up construction.
Equity Sharing	A financial arrangement where ownership or investment is shared among multiple parties, often to reduce upfront costs.
Biochar	A soil amendment made from organic material that improves soil fertility and carbon sequestration.
Caliche	A natural, hard clay material used historically in building bricks in some regions.

Summary Timeline of Key Events

Timestamp	Event / Topic
00:00 – 04:27	Introduction; Tom’s family and conservation legacy; Maui Coastal Land Trust habitat purchase.
04:27 – 09:45	COVID-19 impact on Maui economy and housing crisis; foreclosures ending; social disruption.
09:45 – 13:47	Proposal for affordable housing bonds; leveraging tax revenue for large-scale funding.
13:47 – 18:22	Temporary housing challenges; housing cost and construction delays; equity-sharing concepts.
18:22 – 22:08	Innovative building methods; prefab and local materials; need for new approaches.
22:08 – 29:01	Pandemic response critique; lack of community mobilization; public health and social cohesion.
29:01 – 36:27	Political stance; social reckoning; call for practical leadership and balanced solutions.
36:27 – 43:05	Food security; sustainable agriculture; soil health and farming innovation.
43:05 – 48:26	Civil discourse decline; call for respectful dialogue and cooperation.
48:26 – 55:25	Personal reflections; listening to public testimony; Go Maui advocacy; affordable housing policies.
55:25 – 56:40	Closing remarks; hope for community solutions through dialogue and innovation.

This comprehensive summary captures the nuanced discussion on Maui’s environmental, social, health, and economic challenges, rooted firmly in the transcript content.

00:00

[Music] hello everyone I’m Jason Schwartz your host of the Maui neutral zone I have a terrific guest today I have Tom Blackburn Rodriguez here on Maui Tom welcome to our show thank you very much that’s the first time I’ve had an opportunity to be interviewed in quite a while from you yeah well you know this is you know me a long time I’ve been doing shows here a long time but this is a new incarnation since the middle of 2018 2018 called Maui neutral zone subtitled it’s anything but neutral and

00:50

the fact is we all have values and opinions I was gonna start doing candidates in June of 2018 but radio had this thing that said you have to give equal time to everyone and it was unrealistic it was during primary time so I said let me do values and so I’ve been bringing people on not political but things that are important housing what all kinds of issues and you’re a very welcome guest you you were on talking with me way back when I don’t even remember what we’re talking about

01:25

but you’ve been an active community member sometimes as spokesman for different issues sometimes participating in all kinds of ways and I know you it seems like a couple of decades already isn’t that amazing well actually I moved here in 1998 but my family has been in Hawaii since 1870 my ancestor was the Reverend Thomas Blackburn who came in 1870 and was the assistant to the bishop Honolulu and was there for many years before he went on to Adelaide in Australia where he passed away he was a noted amateur I guess

02:10

ethnologists he like bugs and he identified what became known as the blackburn sphinx moth which is not a moth it’s actually a butterfly but it’s not the largest wingspan of any moth in Amer it looks like a bat when you see it it scares the hell out of you it’s got eyes on its wings so it looks like it’s looking at you and it looks hungry it’s a big big thing but right now right now it’s an endangered species and the interesting part about this is my ancestor came identified it named it

02:49

subsequently it became an endangered species and I had the opportunity in the great honor I was elected president of the then Maui coastal land trust and based on the work of previous people on the board we were able to buy the land on Maui that was the last remaining habitat for the Blackburn’s big spot so it all came together that’s is that the property out toward why yes yeah where the old dairy used to be yeah and I you know it’s very well maintained they do a great job out there and if you haven’t had a chance to

03:29

visit and just walk through you’re gonna find probably the quietest place on Maui outside of Hana it is absolutely beautiful and you can hear the wind you can hear the wind blow that’s where where do you get in near the golf course through that sign or where do you yeah you go down there past where the schoolyard is and and where the really the the ball field is and and you you can go in there and it’s clearly marked but the thing about it is you always want to check in before you go

04:00

out there just let the people know you’re there or even out and volunteer and help maintain and clean it up all the invasive species that were taken out and look the water was epic and they’ve done a great job on it so that’s how I’d like this brought where there’s a park there or they yes yes that isn’t part of the property or a video just across this just across the road there you go down past the houses but that’s how I first became involved in issues here in Maui

04:27

County well it was through the mountain coastal land trust and you know you have to give credit to people like Susan Brad Bradford and you like Helen Nielsen power generally let the fight for that land and then I came in as president and we were able to close the deal at that time that is so great thank you for doing that I it’s so nice to hear that people how did that kind of thing get funded through it was through senator day in a way and the relationships that Helen and dad with Senator and we were able to then use his

05:03

power back there at that time it was really nice because it gave me an opportunity to get to know him and we actually became somewhat friends I interviewed him in his last major interview with with Bundy Iacobucci before before Punda passed on and was able to do a fairly major interview about how the two of them met how they were grew up together how they worked to establish the Democratic Party and you know of course the senator always had a soft spot in his heart for Hana because that’s where his mother was from so why

05:38

I had a chance to do that interview both of them and that allowed me to get to know the senator a little bit and after his wife passed away we had one or two I was very surprised I would meet advance doing him saying and we had an opportunity he shared with me some of his feelings and thoughts about the loss of his wife and I was really surprised and honored that he would trust me that much to have those kinds of conversations because he was a great guy he was just a great guy well that’s a

06:09

Maui story isn’t it you can move to Maui and you’ll find yourself sitting at a barbecue next to the top senator of the Senate and he’ll be sharing life stories and that’s Maui yeah well and now so that is two decades ago when we’re really meeting I guess you’ve been active in all kinds of different issues and what I think about what’s going on on the island now here we’re in the middle of kovat times you know like Charles Dickens you know these are the best of times these are the

06:44

worst of times oh yes but these are the times and so I’m at my home your your home and here we’re not at the stage and everything is getting more remote when Amazon everyone is understanding why Jeff Bezos is the richest guy in the world of course everyone sums everything in a distance and retail is closing and then they’ve gotten a spike on them with this Kovan more retail closing we’re trying to open up again to tourism in a clever way but not get that stuff attacking us and we’ve had housing

07:22

issues that have been delayed all over the years all kinds of issues but what really interested me was that how when I think housing I’ve always thought that there should be plenty of housing here and plenty of affordable housing but could easily happen and affordable meaning that really affordable so that rent isn’t 1800 for a studio and Maui meadows you know of five hundred square feet what’s that or you know a two-bedroom twenty seven hundred and fifty dollars how does a family do that

08:00

in normal times never mind where we’re at well you know it’s interesting that you say that because here we are in this period of time and we’re bringing into this period of time we’re dragging in issues that haven’t been resolved and haven’t been really been solved so now they’re highlighted even more when you talk about the cost of living on Maui because on July 26 or the end of July yeah July 26 the federal hold on foreclosures is going to end unless they extend it through September like I think

08:38

they have done in some instances but what’s gonna happen and then if the unemployment drops away yeah that’s hundred dollars so we’ve got even greater problems kind of immediate problems that are pushing the other things which were on the front burner you’re now being pushed to the back burner because Jason you know without being you know the sky is falling kind of guy this is a major attack on the human race the human race has no immunity and the virus is working its way around the

09:12

world and the reality is there are a lot of human beings are going to get left by the side of the road okay there’s a tremendous social disruption if you start having people who are in their 50s 60s would die well because they open up a lot of space for young people to move up there’s gonna be a lot of changing around in society so even though we’re talking about opening up and maintain the economy I think people are making a mistake when they think it’s going to open up and be like it was before

09:45

it’s like you and I are now doing the skin of youth a we would have done in a totally different way to another time yeah but that’s because you have figured out a way to open up and still be socially distant still be safe the problem is that many of the businesses that have had to close down are never going to be able to reopen in the same way that they were before absolutely that is the that is the mistake that’s being made when we’re talking about reopening the economy because I think what kind of economy

10:20

mistake by who I mean I I think you know it’s like where is a priority if you were a mayor you hear the clamor that we have to open up for tourism we want to do it safe I had Josh green lieutenant governor on you know better than a month ago and we were talking about this plan that they are now putting into thing about testing people before they jump on a plane but even that is not foolproof and our inter Island thing we already see numbers growing and things right so we know when you go for a Friday night

10:55

to play yeah and to rest three restaurants out of eight in the town are open and two of them have lines out the door and they’re socially dissonant do anything over what this is going to be and that we know that’s just a forecast to this going on like this and maybe crowds not being there because the PPU a right the pandemic insurance with thing comes off when the end of July suddenly everything is gonna explode people are gonna be more desperate that’s why when you talk about housing

11:29

it’s like okay if we can house people in tents from other countries and in emergency situations what are we doing here do we have anything any plans and pass that all we have people I’m gonna guess before ownership but also rentals we you know when someone says oh we have 30 units going out 200 units well we need 7,000 that’s like not to me that relevant you know you’re right the problem is huge there’s no denying it and there’s no denying that although the best efforts of a lot of really great

12:10

public servants have been working on this problem the truth of the matter is we’ve only been at the margins yeah for some time now I have believes although it may be difficult now with the financial markets the way they are but for several years I’ve been advocating that we take a portion of the funds from the affordable housing fund and we dedicate those for housing bonds that we put them on the market and we guarantee the payback on those bonds by the money that we know is going to be coming into

12:41

the affordable housing fund every year and by the increase in property taxes that will occur as the housing is built if you do housing bonds you’re gonna be talking about putting tens of millions of dollars into housing maybe hundreds of millions of dollars into housing okay you could work with a liske Foundation and others in order to put together that kind of a bond offering so what you do is you take those tax dollars from the affordable housing fund which are now it’s three percent of real property tax

13:12

revenues okay and we’ll be on the Charter probably charter amendment to that effect you take that little bit of money and you leverage it and if you are doing that because all housing is money it’s all about money you better put together the money before you have the housing so if you were to have a bond issue that produced hundred to millions of dollars and could be paid back then you might be able to have a real crash program on housing but until you come up with a funding mechanism that will support large-scale

13:47

construction it’s not gonna happen what about temporary housing you may not maybe that’s a different category than you might have been initially talking but we can put up tents and stuff for everybody why is this still me I’ll give you my specific beef specifically sure I have a friend on Molokai a woman who’s homeless and there’s no housing on low America there’s no shelter on Molokai there are churches there’s nowhere to put her up and here on Maui I see I live off Kamehameha Avenue I see homeless

14:28

it’s almost like homeless camps are being as respectful as they can why don’t we able to handle what kind of thing we talked about down on way Ali Road which is when next to the jail they have these little little houses they look like sheds from lows that are maybe a shed distance apart between each of them and they’re supposed to be for families that are just doesn’t seem realistic and I don’t see any cooperative job programs or or training people to do some of the things that we

15:08

really could use here on-island an alternative cooperative non cash things to solve some of the problems your smart guy and you know like obviously if you can get money through the senator in LA for land when I listen where’s the leadership toward that kind of stuff well I think that so Jones walking behind us there is there is funding for experimental housing but I don’t think it’s been accessed that people haven’t responded to the request for polls what happens is what starts out as

15:51

temporary often becomes temporary over and over and over again you know in World War two the mall that we all know is big them the Washington Mall it’s big it’s wide open well they built temporary offices on them on the mall in order to handle the overflow of the workers because as they came in to Washington in World War two got those temporary structures stayed up until mrs. Kennedy worked with the parks department to get them torn down in 1960 so they were temporary for about twenty years all

16:30

right happy good point I think I have to be careful when you come up with these solutions that in fact they are not temporary to the point where it has been thought through there are many things that can be done to provide housing all right but there’s the image of Maui that’s important that people want to protect the mounting brand and also they want to be certain that what’s temporary is gonna move to something permanent so you have the challenges do we have and the answers may be easy yes or no people in

17:04

our communities that are wealthy enough that they could get these big loans and do the housing or be a major portion of that housing financing and then create equity sharing programs with the new renters and owners to accelerate this in other words wouldn’t have to look for money as much because the the value of the land and the value of the people doing the work on the land could provide a great portion of that financing to do more that’s all I’m really thinking a way to accelerate it and also maybe of

17:46

satisfying the those big owners because they’ll have the equity it almost could be like a shifting on their financial statements and not really impact their immediate bottom line and the money would come back over time as tax advantages I mean I said maybe it’s been looked at but I haven’t heard no there there are all kinds of ways to put deals together there are many ways to do to solve a problem as there are people to think about it the challenge has been here on Maui one of the challenges has been that to build the

18:22

upper end housing is like low-hanging fruit you know you build a house worth more than a million dollars you’re always gonna get people to come in or 3 million what-have-you so it’s low it’s low-hanging fruit okay and that’s where people will go to do the development do the building the other thing is because it is very expensive to build on Maui remember we gotta bring in all the lumber all the drywall all the all the nails we bring in everything you know it all comes in and barges so it’s very expensive to do

18:55

that and when you add on to that the cost of getting your permits approved and your zoning changes approved you know if you’re able to come up with a project and get it started within seven to ten years people are popping champagne bottles asking you how you got it done so fast okay isn’t it possible though to because of all those expenses those present situations bringing in the lumber I’ve heard of lots of alternative building material ideas that could happen and be developed from right here

19:34

I mean actually yeah there are some innovative programs that way one of the things that I was really impressed with was actually concrete rolls can put up and done very very quickly also I’ve seen the homes that fat Mac homes has done which are beautiful homes are manufactured homes you know they they build them in the factory and then they assemble them here on Maui they’re fine fine homes and they’re reasonably priced but in order to do that you’ve got to recognize the labor that’s been trained to build

20:11

housing and what people think of his house which is basically you know a stick and mortar you know you you you put up the frame you put up the roof you do all that and the way the we’ve been building houses for a hundred years if you go to Japan and see how their housing is built most of it is prefab taken to the site and assembled there okay we have different work rules and different a different way of doing things but unfortunately we are doing things the way they were done in the 19th century

20:47

so if you have a 19th century if you have a 19th century plan and you have a 21st century problem what do you think it’s gonna happen Jason nothing I don’t know if this gets us back to our insights about Americans I remember when I was in college I had a poster on my wall it was a sheep store a ram standing on a rock looking very precariously at you and there was a quote on the bottom it said I’m so far behind I think on first America always thinks they’re the top of a game when in fact we’re you

21:28

know we’re not the top of the game there were 19th century plan in a 21st century world I wonder if anyone is as surprised as I am or I don’t know if the right word is shocked or whatever that Europe has banned travel from Americans yeah because their judgement is that the pandemic is out of control in the United States so they have to keep the u.s. out so that we don’t infect their people what happened to the United States being a leader in world health we we should be leading this the Ebola crisis any other

22:08

kinds of things you know I remember when I was a kid and we used to all line up in the supermarket parking lots to get polio shots okay we all got the polio shots our parents were afraid every summer that we would catch you know polio all right and we used to do little things at school we save up dimes and get little of blue crosses and crutches and that kind of thing there’s no mobilization around a common purpose and a common idea and the need to act as a community that’s what’s holding us back that’s why the Europeans

22:45

aren’t letting us in because the Americans are crazy you know we’re out there like Cowboys we have 50 different states in our territories and the president is saying you go get him well we’re behind you all the way you know and I mean I think to myself what if after Pearl Harbor was attacked Roosevelt had gone before Congress he said and he had said it’s up to the governor’s to fight this war and win it and the federal government will back you all the way it’s ridiculous it’s

23:17

ridiculous and we are in a war at end president Trump has rightly said it is invisible enemy but remember this it doesn’t respect class it doesn’t respect race it doesn’t expect how nice your house is or where you went on vacation last year if it wants you it’s gonna get you because you have no way of sending it away you have no immunity and that’s a very scary thing and I think a lot of stuff is happening in the country now is because people are finally beginning to feel out of control yeah

23:53

they and and you talked about Americans we believe that we control everything we control the future you know and what’s happening is people I think are coming to the realization that everything they thought they knew they don’t yeah I mean it’s just amazing I get up in the morning to see how many and I look at how many people died last night was asleep it’s just stunning you know and I don’t know how to compare the numbers of those died to those died more from the pandemic but I keep thinking why is it

24:29

that we can’t honor each other and all be wearing masks were in closed areas and do our washing like we should and stay distant we could Oh but not but we have people that are not honoring and respectful of each other and this thing I don’t know what to say we want tourism back but we’d like to have tourists that are responsible just because you passed a thing and you passed your Kovach test three days before you jump on a plane we hope that if when you’re watching this show and

25:03

now it’s a month from now or you’re here keep your masks on and please honor us all because we’ve been in a fishbowl and our fish ball hasn’t had you guys and we’ve been really safe haven’t you felt incredibly blessed here Tom like oh I I told it number Binkley my own family I said you know if if and and there was a member of my family who was planning to go back to the mainland and then air travel was shut down oh I caught you know like between a rock and a hard place but you’re absolutely

25:36

right unfortunately people have come to believe in the wrong kind of science they believe in a science that can solve every problem with a flick of a switch so what are we looking for right now Jason we’re looking for the magic bullet and what is the president promising us he’s promising us a magic bullet before Christmas we’ve you know just after the election we’re gonna get all the problems will be solved just after the election okay we can’t solve them in October but darn it December that’s our

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big month if we just get past the election put me back in office everything will be okay in December it will be how about the letter that came out after a stimulus check came out twelve hundred dollars that Trump is taking credit for putting this in our pockets right well I I was fortunate I went on you know truth in advertising I got one of those checks obviously but I got I got a hard copy that was signed by Donald Trump okay and so it you know basically says you know brought to you because me by Donald Trump you know he

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has a signature on there and everything and of course it’s that’s brilliant politics because these are going out to families all over the place now unfortunately there’s about 1.2 billion dollars they can’t find there isn’t that funny that when I did bed persons I know it’s not great or or or you could get two checks get one then get convicted of a crime and have the second one delivered to you while you’re in jail yeah but at any rate I think one of the challenges we’ve had and I’ve noticed that some of

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my friends in community action Nautica me action in community organizations or environmental organizations they’ve been relatively silent I haven’t seen them out on the front lines and I could be wrong but I haven’t seen him out in the front lines in the black lives matter marches protests organizing of pandemic things talking about the impact of the pandemic on minority communities you know Native Hawaiians like in so many other areas are being really heavily impacted by this in a greater degree than the rest of the

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population but I don’t hear my friends and I have a lot of friends as I come from the left I don’t hear my friends from the left talking about those things it’s like there’s a great silence but you know what it’s like we used to say a long time ago when people say well I’m you’re into I’m into culture you’re into politics and I would try and say no it’s all the same okay so I feel the same way if you’re an environmental activist this is the environment your environment is

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people people are being impacted by an environmental disaster but there’s a lot of silent voices on the left and I’m surprised by that a little bit saddened by it to die the truth we’re gonna take a quick break we’re at kak u 88.5 FM this is Jason Schwartz I’m here with Tom Blackburn Rodriguez on Maui neutral zone we’ll be back in just a second hey we are back after our short break I am Jason Schwartz here with Tom Blackburn Rodriguez and we’re talking about Maui and its president situation it’s where

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are we now July 1st 2020 we’re halfway through a year that I remember 20/20 used to be clear vision in the future or clear vision and how’s our vision now we’re feeling like everything we know is now up for grabs it’s just it just seems that and understandably people are trying to get back to the way it was but the realization that’s gonna be dawning on us increasingly is there as they once said about the city of Oakland there’s no there there there is no going back to the way it was

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because the way it was is not there anymore right and we’re gonna have to come to grips with that it’s like it’s like you know I’m one of the medical experts that I was watching a guy who’s the head of emergency room services in Houston he was saying do not go out to dinner he said being inside of a restaurant is very dangerous if you’re going to go out eat outside or take out or buddies of a don’t go in a restaurant and they’ve done some studies so you socially distance you put the table six

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feet apart some guy 8 feet over sneezes well those droplets just keep circulating through the air the air conditioning the fans so you’re you’re not safe you’re not safe unless you’re doing everything the CDC is saying okay I think our concern I think probably you share this with me is that feeling the pressure of the need for an economic upturn because people are out will work we made air on the side of opening up too soon too much too fast okay and that’s what I think we’re all concerned

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about that and I think a lot of people are can I question sort of as a when you just said friends on the Left I thought I never really thought of you left or right not Martha I thought of you left do you think of yourself as somewhere other than Oh Timmy left means open progressive open to liberal ideas you seem like that do you well I I would just I would describe myself as a center-left Democrat okay that’s where I put myself okay which means which which which means they’re so irresponsible but liberal in your well

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let me say like for example I supported Bernie Sanders until he dropped out okay and then I moved to Joe Biden alright so because I believe in that overall liberal trend but I don’t believe that institutions have all the answers and one of the problems that we liberals have is we give too much credence to the ability of institutions to solve our problems your institutions reflect both are the best of us and they reflect the worst of us and our job as activists is to constantly push the envelope in terms of reflecting the best

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of us and that means that sometimes the left and like I say I’m left center left Democrat sometimes what we have to do is we have to maybe go outside the box where were comfortable because we have to support reopening the economy but we have to support public health and we have to be the advocates for the best solution not for the one that will be the most popular solution well you can see that’s why this show is set up the way it is because it’s our values how can we find the best answer that works

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for everyone yeah with you so here we are we know about our left public health thing but when I think of financially being financially responsible and not not finding the institution to solve all our problems many people used to think of that as a Republican but you’re calling it a central Democrat I I like to then take all these labels throw them out but sounds like all people should be able to agree in that central area yeah we have any leadership there was a woman I listed Claire McCaskill I think

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it was well so I listened to her this morning she’s being interviewed and she used a phrase that I thought was right on the money she said America is at a reckoning said a reckoning that sounds like the Bible you know the day of reckoning word so I went up on the internet and I read everything I could about reckoning you know and basically it means reckoning means it’s come home to roost okay your problems your promises all these kinds of things on reckoning means did you do it or not okay that’s my day Judgment

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Day so I thought you know what she’s right we are to reckoning you know we’re we’re at a turning point because this has calmed us and it has grabbed us by the lapels and said hey you better wake up because what you thought was isn’t and what you think is going to be won’t be what are you gonna do because it is very you know a human beings a human brain I you know these things we look for patterns we like to link things up and they have to make sense that we got to get through the day you know that how do

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you turn on the car how do you open the door because there’s a sequence to things that the brain likes the brain likes to understand what’s going on it’s very difficult right now to understand what’s going on and not trying to find somebody to blame when you see the demonstration you see these anti masks and everything it’s well I’m blaming you you you are a liberal and you’re wearing a mask I’m a conservative I’m not gonna wear a mask well you know what I’m not

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going to affect anybody in my family and you are you know so it’s it’s it’s not a question of politics it’s not a question of left or right it’s not of course in political parties and I think people should say that all the time it’s a question of what works best to protect the health of our community because you cannot have a healthy economy Jason with a healthy population you know you I think what’s happening right now you know and I’m I know you know the genius

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on these things but I see a lot of putting the cart before the horse you know and I think we ought to step back use a little common sense and say well what would our grandparents say I mean if I went to my grandmother god bless her she will always give me the advice to do the hardest thing first you know do the hardest thing first and we’re not doing that we’re not doing it right now so we are being given the chance you and I well with the blessing of us and the people that would be following us so

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what might we do now food security besides my PO knows effort would seem that we should be encouraging people to grow gardens and when they have extra food get it to someone who needs food what other things can we do right now one of the one of the unanswered questions as far as I have been able to determine for some time now is not how do we do food drives and how do we get food to people and I think that’s important when I was a member of rotary I was always down there at Safeway you know doing doing food drives and I like

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to do that kind of work it’s real work and has a real benefit but the question we should ask ourselves is why is there hunger on Maui why is there hunger what is the plan to end hunger on Maui or are we always just going to throw money and food at it meanwhile another generation of people comes up who needs food assistance until we answer the question of why is there hunger on Maui and where is the strategic plan to end it we’re just spinning our wheels and and and I’m not opposed to it I think it’s something

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that’s good but we have to ask ourselves why is there hunger on my why are the rents so high on Maui why is it so hard to get from one place to another on Maui we’re not asking yourself the big questions and we don’t answer the big questions we’re gonna go back to very small places well we can answer it you and I right now why is there not enough housing on Maui you talked about it because there’s not enough money so I said hey let’s take some of the big people that are here that have the money

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and have the land make them partners move it around on the financial statement so that we can start them working the banks they own the banks with you not big problem for them to do the financing although you might have to do things in an unorthodox way okay temporary housing will keep it on forever like I said it could last for 20 years we got to do some novel things here now break out those old patterns I don’t I don’t think we have any choice other than to do that I’m really concerned though that we think that by

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creating a department agriculture that that’s gonna create food sustainability no it’s not what we ought to be doing well I think we are doing but we need to be doing even more just as I learned from from my friends in the the Farmers Union the organic guys actually when I would interview them on shows like this we talked about food and they educated me to a fact that I as a city boy didn’t know is it Tom it starts with the soil you have to have a good soil without good soil you’re not gonna have good

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crops I said well I when I would look at crops I don’t see the the corn out there and the stuff waving in the wind and I said no it’s not there it starts in the dirt well it’s the same thing when we talk about getting back to a new normal we gotta go back to the dirt we’ve got to grow farmers before we can grow crops that’s that’s key to it because if you grow farmers they will grow food I don’t know if you’ve seen some of my recent do you know win some Williams and

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acha heya farm they’re in Central Valley next to Kelley King spot yeah I know I know I know of them yes I do well I’m only mentioning them because I met them had a nice conversation with her and with a gentleman in from Montana Michael Smith to take our green waste and process it to make it’s called region attack basically biochar plus taking the fight o suta khals the plant chemicals to be able to make things grow better and regenerate the soil that these things exist just I think a matter

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in fact this last around fifty thousand was allocated as a part of a grant to Michael Smith to show that this works and we need investment into those things day when I was with the federal government and and I admit that freely and and I worked in farm worker programs one of the projects we develop was how do we build housing using local materials you don’t bring in the steel rebar and we don’t bring in the wood what do we do how do we how do we do this okay well there’s a there’s a clay

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called caliche I don’t know if you’re familiar with it now although all over the southwest all over China is caliche it’s one of the hardest clays you can find and it’s all over the planet alright and easily accessible with a shovel you can get to it so what they did is they came up with and they would dig up this collegiate and they’d mix it up with water and then they would make bricks out of it like bricks like like they were brick bricks okay but it was right there in in the neighborhood that

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they were creating their building materials now when you build a wall you just can’t stick it up there because you have an earthquake it’s all gonna fall over right it look like Pakistan or something so you got to have some strength in there well you know what’s as strong as steel and it’s also accessible all over the world bamboo so they were building homes using mud from their backyards okay and bamboo from the garden and creating housing as strong as anything you could make with

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wood and steel and now those those kinds of things the innovation you’re talking about means that we have to walk away from what we know and explore what we don’t know and find out if it works you know Roosevelt said that you try something if it doesn’t work try something elsewhere for God’s sakes try something and that’s what we that’s where we are right now and we’re in an unknown era and it requires that we trust each other that we have faith in each other that we believe that we all

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want the best for each other yeah one thing one of the things that’s really been saddening to me and to the people I work with you I’ve been bald and go Maui is the level to which the civil dialogue has fallen to and the use of young terms you know that you know you don’t just disagree with somebody you become their enemy you don’t just have a different set of ideas you’re corrupt okay you just don’t think that something else might work you’re bought and sold that kind of tribalism and that kind of

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language has been very destructive to problem-solving on Maui and I’m against that kind of language and I know a lot of people who are saddened by it that’s one of the things we have to clean up well and that’s here we are that’s exactly what we are doing right I really are and these I think a lot of the young people need good leadership to show them there’s a way to be that way I mean you don’t have to take a hatchet out to talk to someone you don’t agree with and and

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you know here’s ago I I had the opportunity to work with the Democratic National Committee and of course there was the other side Republican National Committee and was very true although it’s a cliche I could argue with somebody during the day and have a drink with them at night because that’s the way we knew that today you were on that side and I’m on this side but tomorrow I may need you and you may need me so let’s not kill each other okay I might win today you might win tomorrow all right but we’re

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both gonna be still be here and we’re all gonna respect each other and you could actually this the truth you could fight like hell and then have a drink at night and you can’t do that in DC anymore well Kenya now I wonder if some people eye or Newt Gingrich say that it’s just the media spinning it that you still can do that I really don’t know I’m I tend to think that people aren’t talking anymore I mean like you say I mean I don’t think newts right when I hear Russ Rush Limbaugh I

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sometimes wonder why they just keep bringing up can’t be just for ratings why are they making it such what I keep it going for ratings where they have people and their positive integrated and then why can’t be be integrated on everything why do we have to get so polarized Rush Limbaugh maybe something today but shortly after he passes away he will be completely forgotten he will be on what we like to refer to as the dustbin of history he’s an insignificant person with a loud microphone he’s a failed comedian who

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found a stick when he began to address conservative groups and turn his humor into a little bit more politics and gradually the politics overcame the humor but he was a failed comedian it’s a speaker on the rubber chicken circuit for the Republicans and he found something at work God loved me found a way to make a living but never think that anything he says has any significance or lasting meaning because he’s like dust in the wind I don’t know if that’s he’s just dust in the wind by

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the way we just want you to know you can tell it’s the first of the month and three quarters of the way through the 11 o’clock hour that’s why we heard that sound and that wasn’t your imagination don’t get the announcer says this is not a drill that was scary it was a lot of fun there was a lot of fun people my neighborhood running around like crazy and I was able to get the information that had been thought it was a mistake early on even people in Britain see services but I went outside

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and I’m telling you there were people jumping in their cars I’m going well where you going you can outrun the missile no that was that with that I think that kind of was a wake-up call wasn’t it it was maybe that’s the time to say I love you maybe that’s what we all have to do at least once a day or not more you know will chasten every day every day in this pandemic the lesson is that this is a day that you may not have another one you know there are people who get sick and three days

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later they’re gone or healthy people strong people okay so every day that we have could be the last day so we should treat it as the first day and every day I wake up and I thank God I’m awake I think God my wife was with me my son is with me and I realized that I have the opportunity to have another great day if I choose to make it a great day and I do and I will well you’re you’re you’re a great guy I really have always appreciated you you know sometimes publicly you know I’ve seen you standing

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with different issues and I didn’t agree with this and I didn’t agree with that but never does that stop us from Gabel to communicate to really understand why we say things and how and what can we do the fact that we can do this it means we can work anything out we can solve all our problems if we care about each other well this is great what you’re doing and how you’ve made this shift as well well I think your example or the way people need to think about what they wanted to and how they want to do it in

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what’s being coined the new normal alright it’s new I don’t know how normal it is it’s definitely new I’m let me just check what time we got going on oh good I just feel very fortunate you know i I’ve never here on my I’ve had people say to me well why why aren’t you in the economic department why don’t they take and get your ideas I don’t know maybe cuz years ago they labeled me as radical because I was green which seems to be the central model now I’ve been so I’ve

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been talking it was fashionable well you’re the ear survivor your survivor you’re doing well you know when when I first came to Maui which was 1998 about a year into it I I was asked to go ahead up a state operation for went for the for the presidential campaign and I had to decide am i staying on Maui or am I gonna fly back and forth the mainland and I decided that I was in a stick it’s hard to stick on that it’s expensive to be here it’s challenging to be here there’s all kinds of things you

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have to learn you don’t know anything when you get off the plane you think you know some because you came from the mainland you’re green you don’t know nothing you my first my first year that I was here Jason I did not speak in public I said I did some writing for the Haleakala time so I went to meetings and I wrote and I listened but it was a year before I raised my hand and asked a question and the reason I did that is because I looked at myself as an immigrant okay I was migrating here I

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don’t know these people I don’t know the language they speak I don’t know their history and their culture and if they really fully showed me to begin to speak out about the way I think things should be because I didn’t know how things got to be the way they were that was the one of the most valuable years of my life on Maui sitting in the back of the room in the listening even today when people complain about all the testifiers and they come up before the county and the hours and

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hours I said well I’d have to tell you you may be looking at one of the few people that actually enjoys listening to the testimony because I learn a lot and much of that is unfiltered you know there are new testifiers and they they don’t go up there with you know the smooth sand and all the kinds and they just say you guys are really screwing up and so you get you get there are a lot of people who are the regulars you know the usual gang but you get new people who come in around the issue and if you

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want to listen listen to what real people say when they’re speaking their minds when they’re not trying to cover something up and they’re just talking the way they feel you can learn a lot about Maui it’s all free it’s either in the trailers on TV so instead of why are you watching this it’s free entertainment come on I’m not getting any weight and it’s not costing me any money okay we have a handful of minutes left and we could go on talk and I’m your with go Maui give me an idea what

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go Maui is for are go now it’s an organization’s and nonprofit organization I’m their executive consultant and it concerns herself with issues of employment housing agriculture water a sustainable environment and respect for the cultures so doing piece we were strong advocates and in terms of housing we spend a lot of time recently on the Affordable on the affordable housing program we were advocating for an increase in the set aside in the budget and I think it went to 3% last year and this year also the charter

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amendment that’s going to be coming up will make the the Charter the fair of the housing fund will make it ten years authorization and also increase it from a minimum of two percent to a minimum of three percent what does that mean that means a it means authorization to keep it affordable right because sin has minimum damping you know the minimum 3% each year out of the real property tax revenues off the top council can’t mess with it okay and the council can’t do anything about it so those so by going

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from 2% to 3% we’re generating multiple millions of additional dollars that were building that fund every year very much 10 years enough I always wondered be permanent but one of the council members said you know let’s do it for 10 years if it’s going fine but at least give us an opportunity to check in on it and the council will discuss equity sharing in the mix of stuff well but we I talked with various council members about bonding housing bonds but our our focus for the last several months has been the budget

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and the amount of money going to affordable housing the charter amendment for affordable housing and we we focused on that previously we’ve been involved in advocating for affordable housing projects that have come up before the council unfortunately about 40% of the projects that come before the council their housing are turned down for one reason or another and so that’s very discouraging so we keep advocating on that we’ve been very much involved with water from my pono agricultural issues

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equity sharing on the water so we we get involved in public policy issues we’re not a mass based organization okay we’re an advocacy organization we concentrate on the Maui County Council elected and appointed officials as well as state elected officials and that’s what we try and put our our money you know the bang for the buck we put it in those areas as advocates so you won’t see us out big mass demonstrations and all the kind of thing but you’ll see us before the county council before the

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state legislature okay and your money that you would go would necessarily go to their campaigns or thing but we’re not part where were nonpartisan we do not endorse any candidate nor do we fund any days but we were very strong on issues that’s where we put our emphasis well I’m very happy that we had you on here you’re a fun to be your fun guest because you’re very down-to-earth like a ham and we can talk about subjects and no holds barred and at the end we’re actually coming out I

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think a stronger community because of people like yourself Tom Blackburn Rodriguez Hill thank you for having me on the show and congratulations on the show thank you and hope to see her again if there’s anything that you’d like to discuss you’re always welcome back here with me and in the show whatever inc