Maui’s WATER ISSUES – ROBIN KNOX

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Jason Schwartz sits with ROBIN KNOX (SEA LILY), researcher & certified Qualified Environmental Professional (QEP) environmental professional consultant. WATER; scientist, water quality, environmental protection and more- talk about water quality and management issues and future water issues on Maui, the complexity of it all, the ways we can help, future development and planning direction.9-17-2018

Summary & Transcript

 

“The Neutral Zone with Jason Schwartz featuring Robin Knox on Water Issues”

• [00:01 → 11:06] Introduction and Nature of Water

Jason Schwartz opens the show “The Neutral Zone,” emphasizing its role as a platform for balanced, respectful dialogue on various issues. His guest, Robin Knox, is introduced as an environmental professional specializing in water quality and environmental science, with experience in engineering and regulatory frameworks.

Robin explains her expertise centers on water quality — the health and cleanliness of water, not just its quantity. She highlights a key ecological fact: there is only one water cycle on Earth, meaning all water is interconnected. Pollution or contamination in one part of the cycle affects the entire system. She stresses the importance of respecting water as a sacred, life-giving resource and calls for integrating traditional knowledge (“the new old ways”) with modern science and engineering to better manage water sustainably.

Jason and Robin discuss the challenges of water management on Maui, including the undervaluation of brackish groundwater near shorelines, which is often polluted due to regulatory gaps. Robin notes that water issues are complex and involve multiple agencies with overlapping responsibilities, but the county government plays a crucial role in local water management.

They outline four main topics for the discussion:

1. The nature of water
2. Wastewater treatment
3. Runoff and nonpoint source pollution
4. Integrated water quality management and planning

Robin emphasizes the artificial division between water quantity (how much water is available) and water quality (how clean or healthy it is), and notes the fragmented responsibility among agencies like the Commission on Water Resources Management, Department of Water Supply, Department of Health, and others. She warns that past contamination from sources like Fukushima, agricultural runoff, and plastics threatens ocean health and freshwater supplies.

The conversation highlights nitrogen pollution as a major hidden culprit damaging ocean ecosystems—primarily from fertilizer and wastewater. Robin references studies from the 1980s that predicted algal blooms caused by excess nitrogen, a problem still ongoing today.

They describe Maui’s water cycle: rainfall captured by mountain plants infiltrates soils to replenish groundwater or becomes surface runoff feeding streams. Water flows downhill toward the ocean, carrying any pollution with it. Maui’s permeable lava geology allows fast water movement, which reduces natural filtration and storage, exacerbating contamination risks.

• [11:06 → 26:27] Wastewater Treatment and Cesspool Issues

The discussion shifts to wastewater management, focusing on cesspools—a major problem on Maui. Robin clarifies a cesspool is simply a hole in the ground for raw sewage disposal with no treatment, allowing waste to leach directly into groundwater and subsequently into the ocean.

The state legislature has mandated cesspool elimination by 2050 due to their severe pollution risks. Replacing cesspools involves costly upgrades to septic or more advanced treatment systems. Costs for homeowners can range from $20,000 to $50,000 or more, depending on site conditions. This financial burden poses a challenge for wide-scale compliance.

Robin outlines treatment options:

• Septic tanks (basic treatment but limited nitrogen removal)
• Anaerobic secondary treatment (improved but still limited)
• Connection to centralized wastewater treatment plants (more effective but expensive)

She underscores the need for cost-effective, site-specific engineering solutions and modern technologies that mimic natural processes to improve treatment efficacy.

Jason raises concerns about financing these upgrades. Robin suggests a combined approach involving private property owner responsibility, public funding, and possible contributions from large landowners or corporations. She notes the water and wastewater industry has been lobbying Congress for low-interest loans and funding, similar to efforts in the 1970s that led to modern wastewater infrastructure.

They discuss the misconception that wastewater treatment is a “black hole” of spending, arguing clean water is a critical priority deserving investment. Robin stresses the importance of integrating water quality goals into land use and infrastructure planning, which is currently fragmented.

• [26:27 → 44:00] Runoff, Nonpoint Source Pollution, and Integrated Management 

Robin highlights runoff and nonpoint source pollution—diffuse contaminants from various sources like stormwater—that further degrade water quality and harm ocean reefs.

She emphasizes the need for watershed-based planning, where the whole island’s water systems are managed holistically rather than in silos. Each watershed has unique conditions and requires tailored strategies for cesspool elimination, runoff control, and water reuse.

Robin criticizes the lack of comprehensive county-level water quality oversight and calls for hiring more specialized environmental professionals to coordinate efforts across departments.

Jason and Robin discuss the complex politics of funding priorities, noting tourism promotion diverts resources from environmental protection. They suggest reallocating some funds toward water infrastructure and management.

They also touch on innovative decentralized wastewater solutions, such as neighborhood-scale treatment systems, which could provide social and environmental sustainability benefits.

• [44:00 → 54:35] Advanced Treatment, Nitrogen Removal, and Water Reuse

The conversation delves into advanced wastewater treatment technologies, especially biological nitrogen removal processes, which are essential to prevent nitrogen pollution from reused wastewater.

Robin explains that current reuse practices focus on bacterial safety and clarity (R1 water standards) but often ignore nitrogen and toxic compounds, which can still harm coral reefs through eutrophication and algal blooms.

They note that nitrogen removal treatment infrastructure is less costly than building extensive reuse systems but both are needed. Proper nitrogen removal before reuse or ocean discharge is critical to protect marine ecosystems.

Jason and Robin discuss injection wells, which discharge treated wastewater underground. These wells currently lack permits that would regulate nitrogen and pollutant levels to protect ocean water quality, posing ongoing risks.

The discussion underscores the urgency to enforce stricter water quality standards, obtain proper permits, and invest in infrastructure upgrades to prevent further ecosystem damage.

• [54:35 → 55:05] Closing Thoughts and Call to Action

Robin advocates shifting the cultural perception of wastewater from shameful waste to a valuable resource to be recovered and reused responsibly. She encourages community engagement, neighborly cooperation, and creative financing to tackle cesspool elimination and water quality challenges.

Jason echoes the urgency of the water crisis, calling for continuous dialogue, education, and political will to implement solutions. Robin invites listeners to contact her via email to learn more and get involved.

The show concludes with a commitment to ongoing conversations about Maui’s water issues and a hopeful message that with collective effort, sustainable water management is achievable.

1. Key Insights

• Water quality is inseparable from water quantity; all water is part of a single, interconnected cycle.
• Maui faces a serious water pollution crisis, especially from cesspools leaching raw sewage into groundwater.
• Nitrogen pollution from wastewater and fertilizers is a leading cause of toxic algal blooms and coral reef decline.
• Current water management is fragmented among agencies and lacks comprehensive integration and oversight.
• Upgrading wastewater treatment and eliminating cesspools will require billions in investment, combining private, public, and corporate funding.
• Advanced treatment technologies, especially those targeting nitrogen removal, are critical for protecting ocean ecosystems.
• Water reuse is important but must be coupled with effective pollutant removal to avoid spreading contamination.
• Community education, watershed-based planning, and hiring environmental professionals into government roles are essential steps.
• Shifting societal attitudes to value wastewater as a resource can motivate sustainable practices and investments.

1. 1. 1. Summary Outline
2. Introduction to The Neutral Zone and Robin Knox
   1. Host Jason Schwartz introduces water expert Robin Knox.
   2. Robin’s background in environmental science and water quality.
   3. The importance of respecting water as a sacred resource.
3. Nature of Water and Water Cycle on Maui
   1. Water cycle overview: rainfall, infiltration, runoff, groundwater, ocean.
   2. The interconnectedness of all water and pollutants.
   3. Challenges posed by Maui’s geology and climate variability.
   4. The problem of nitrogen pollution.
4. Wastewater Treatment and Cesspool Crisis
   1. Definition and problems of cesspools.
   2. Legislative mandate to eliminate cesspools by 2050.
   3. Treatment upgrade options and costs.
   4. Funding challenges and potential solutions.
5. Runoff, Nonpoint Source Pollution, and Integrated Planning
   1. Diffuse pollution sources and their impacts.
   2. Need for watershed-based planning and coordinated management.
   3. Critique of fragmented government roles.
   4. Calls for more environmental professionals in county government.
6. Advanced Treatment Technologies and Water Reuse
   1. Importance of nitrogen removal in treatment processes.
   2. Limitations of current reuse standards.
   3. Injection well permitting issues.
   4. Balancing reuse with environmental protection.
7. Closing Remarks and Community Call to Action
   1. Changing cultural attitudes toward wastewater.
   2. Encouraging community participation and cooperation.
   3. The urgency of addressing water quality for future generations.
   4. Contact information for Robin Knox.

This detailed summary captures the depth and structure of the original transcript while organizing key information into clear thematic sections for comprehensive understanding.

Transcript

0:01

this is Jason Schwartz welcome to the neutral zone the neutral zone is brought to you by the Maui miracle dot org for a better tomorrow today that mean amost not where you once you travel the price tag on your clothes there’s no dollar sign on a piece of mind the SOUTHCOM and new well welcome to our show so this is the neutral zone valley neutral zone calm I’m Jason Schwartz your host this is 88.5 FM kak ULP here in downtown carl louie and some would say on the collar the karaoke king but

01:05

that would be KKK so I don’t go for that but thank you but um I am here with a terrific guest you know people say well you’re not neutral with the neutral zone that means we speak to everybody about anything and everything but we don’t take heads I don’t carry a sword I speak about all sides and all on issues and I do things hopefully with integrity and honor where we can find out what we agree on and what do we want to do as people to be able to make things a better way and better world been doing this a long time

01:38

under many names and here we are now and I have a guest that is loaded to give you all that she has and she’s a really wonderful lady I’m staring at her if you were watching TV or ikkaku excuse me kak you or Facebook live big build up this is like a wind-up for the swing this is Robin Knox good morning and welcome to our show Robin good morning Jason nice to be here thank you keep talking and jump in on me because I want to get your volley good we have 2 is here 2 is our service dog friend and he’s here and quiet and

02:15

really good he’s only a couple few years now huh yes he’s been with me for two years now and hopefully he’ll continue to be quiet oh he’s good now I am he’s never been on the radio before so then I hope he’ll speak up you know the dog world has a lot to be said I mean and we have room for him right well but Robin the way I met Robin I know Robin as see lily and she was I could say dancing but it’s more like honoring the praise is the different aspects of the Tara she

02:56

was working you were doing it with a bunch of ladies with prima and the girls as I look at it and really honoring the tar and I’ve done video and things over time I got to know her but I also had the good pleasure of speaking with you when you were candidate Robin Knox for County Council you know seat here in our island and so people that are voters know this is Robin Knox who is running for County Council who lives in South Maui but we represent all of us and Robins specialty that she seemed to be

03:30

loaded with this you had a lot of knowledge about stuff but water with your specialty yeah how are you I want you to kind of give people an idea about why are you known as the water person everyone comes to well I’m an environmental professional which is us I’m a scientist also do a good bit of engineering work and deal with regulations in law and it’s all oriented toward protection and my specialty is water quality so that’s why you hear me talking about the water a lot and does

04:06

that mean water like the quality of what we drink it means yes see it’s simmering down to I don’t know what’s going on with two let’s close the door we have okay – you are right he’s just trying to make a bed anyway so you might our water water that’s in the ocean I’m just doing this for our guests yes that’s actually one of the takeaways that I want everyone to get there really is only one water there’s there’s one water cycle on this planet and the same water goes around

04:45

and around so it’s really important how we treat that water all of it all of it everywhere and that is actually one of the things I hope we get to talk about is kind of the flaws and how we’ve managed water in the past for instance shallow groundwater brackish water near the shoreline is an undervalued resource and and so our rules and regulations and plans have allowed it to be polluted and it turns out that’s a problem because it’s only one water and I don’t know these problems that you’re talking about

05:19

that the brackish water and poorly managed and things we’re speaking to and speaking about calmly but I’ve been listening to this for 30 years I’ve been on Maui since 1988 well did you get here I got here in 2006 at the imagine now imagine now we were talking about this stuff before it was a problem we’re talking to people in the world about things that are here now that we’re managing that don’t have if we don’t change the way we are we’re going down we have to do radical things

05:54

radical changes would you think that’s true well I think we need to do what I call the new old ways we need to act now and and there are new technologies and new science and engineering that wasn’t available in the past but the old ways of understanding they’re really being connected to the water and understanding you know water is life to me that means water is sacred and we should respect it and if we guide all of our decision-making from that place I think would make better decisions that would benefit

06:30

everyone now this is a decision for everyone to make in every moment not just government right talking about you’ve been involved in legal things and water quality is that what I’m understanding but you’re talking about very personally we all have to honor water water that goes into our bodies water that we’re jumping into water that we’re flushing where it goes water that goes out to sea and injection wells we had a guest last week Stewart stand very nice man environmental management of the county

07:09

he’s the director and his write his gun Mike Miyamoto very nice gentleman and he he brought something in about injection wells and I’m confused maybe you can help me cuz well I I had two glasses of water he said and Alan Arakawa was the person that did this test and said here’s two glasses of water they both look the same which one will you drink that didn’t prove to me that the water is I don’t know when I asked about gray water and they said oh no that’s what comes out of your washing machine it’s a

07:42

little different kind of water coming out of the wall well I hope I hope we can talk about four things one the nature of water which we’ve already started talking about necessary to life and sake second wastewater treatment which gets into some of the and there’s a need for a lot of definitions I think that came out and your discussions with Stuart I listen to that shows really good and then right right and in addition to waste water another source of pollution that affects water quality is runoff

08:16

nonpoint source pollution contaminated runoff and nonpoint source it means it comes right it’s like diffuse it comes from everywhere so it’s not from the end of a pipe or something that you can put your hands on like okay and then how do we if we want to do what I said and take care of the water how do we actually do that how do we integrate this management of water quality into our decision-making into our planning into our infrastructure plans you know how do we do that and and that’s we’re

08:55

not doing that comprehensively we’re working in silos where we’re doing drinking water over here waste water over here runoff over here and we’re not connecting those dots responsibility is it I think all of us individually the government there’s a department of water there’s a State thing of water there’s a federal how do we know there are many overlapping responsibilities but one of the the county actually has a lot of control more than the state and federal governments do and in the past there’s

09:30

been an attitude with the county when I would talk about for instance the water quality of the ocean they would say oh that’s the state’s kuleana but the reality is all governmental bodies in Hawaii have a public trust to take care of the water public trust responsibility so what I’m hoping I mean you’re gonna name the floor what I’m hoping is that you name the issues that you see as issues that need to be helped well we’re doing good what things are needed some by the government and some by people you

10:03

and me on ways we can all honor water so we can make the whole system better through our being conscious so it’s a combination plan but we know water is the most important thing I think more important than anything else is like it’s I don’t know if we get it we’re on an island surrounded by water it’s salty it’s a process in fact I’m going this this week to see water coming from the air you’re gonna go to that dimension I saw the notice for that I don’t know I’ll be able to make it

10:35

I’ll give you some motion all right all right but I mean the thing that I’m bringing up is water is important I’d like to know the four areas you want to cover we’ve got plenty of time well I just said them nature of water wastewater treatment runoff and polluted you know non point source pollution and then how do we manage it how do we manage so those are the four things okay so to start out you know we’ve already talked about water a little bit and one thing that’s important is to distinguish

11:06

quantity of water from quality of water and often people get confused about that and so it’s important to remember that water has different qualities depending on where it is and what we put in it and what the other surrounding conditions are and that’s separate from the quantity but it can be affected by the quantity and a lot of our state laws that like for instance Commission on water resources management there are responsibilities primarily for quantity Department of Water Supply theirs is for

11:40

drinking water supply Division of Environmental Management there kuleana is clean up the wastewater Department of Health is responsible for the ocean water quality and the stream water quality so we as humans have kind of artificially divided all this up but they’re not that effective right because if you look at water the water itself doesn’t really honor those little dividing lines that we try to impose upon concern is I mean I don’t know my concern is that we’ve already tainted

12:11

our ocean with a Fukushima never mind everything else or an island of plastic and so sea water and that all that world is going on and here on land we’re taking valuable non salt water and polluting it and not honoring it in many ways we’re on an island I mean what the mainland is doing or what the world is doing we can see from a distance and I used to think we were smart enough and I hope to think we’re still smart enough to grab this one while we can and do something about it do you think we’re in

12:47

a place where we can do something absolutely and I just I think there are other more subtle invisible aspects to water quality that people maybe aren’t as conscious of as they are Fukushima or plastics because those things and even polluted runoff that’s got a lot of sediment in it you can see those things but there’s other things we need to worry about and what’s really killing the world ocean to a large extent is nitrogen and so that’s one of the things I want to talk about you know in 1983

13:19

the Department of Energy on page three of their annual report wrote that nitrogen from fertilizer can go and cause algae bloom and then that was 83 I got here in 88 and I watched them go through an algae bloom thing and I saw they spent $200,000 on a study and there it was I saw it there before they started their study and they come to the same conclusions it’s been known for a long time and it’s what’s been indicated as the cause of some of the toxic algae blooms that have been seen in Florida

13:53

you know these things occur naturally but they are exacerbated by our actions when we adds you know supplement the natural amount of nitrogen with our waste and our fertilizers and other materials so you probably a different show we’ll talk about the DDT and the Monsanto there’s all of that too so let’s yeah let’s first just go back to the nature of water and think about our water cycle here on our islands the water of course comes from the rain the freshwater we have highly specialized

14:27

plants high up on the mountains that help to capture that water plants do we have we could use more storage but we have natural storage in our aquifers so that we have you know what we have a lot of water we I mean when you look at other places in the world we are blessed with abundant water supply now there are areas like dry leeward sides that don’t get a lot of rainfall so that’s part of what I hope to talk about too is how we accommodate that right and then the water goes to one of two places well

15:04

some of it actually goes back up into the atmosphere because there’s plants transpire and some water goes back up some evaporates but most of it either infiltrates and goes into the groundwater so it goes through the soils into the groundwater or it runs off on the surface and we would call that a stream and on Maui we have perennial streams that run all the time and then we also have intermittent streams that only run when there’s big rain like on the leeward side but all of those are important again we need to respect the

15:40

intermittent streams in the same way we respect perennial streams because they have an important function for water quality and so the water you know as you would expect it seeks the lowest spot and it takes the path of least resistance so that’s how the water flows through our island so it’s going downhill it’s moving toward the ocean and anything that we do on the land or anything we inject into the water is also moving with that groundwater toward the ocean and lava tubes and things like

16:14

that and and having very pervious permeable geology means that water moves faster here then say on the continental US I am on radio here I’m so I don’t want to lose our listeners in the detail please appreciate that what’s the point the water moves down you know then quick we’re not storing it that’s why I asked about storage you say the plans it’s coming down we have spot places non spot water that’s why I want to get and integrate the things you’re talking about into

16:46

what he’s saying I want to see where and what that you talk about the water on the surface we have limited water the brackish water not being managed right I told you it’s 20 years ago right well as the water comes toward the ocean of course you get it in the center of the island it’s fresher and then when you get toward the edges where the ocean is that’s where it mixes with the salt water from the ocean so that’s why you get your brackish water down there I guess I’m trying to get to the issue

17:17

because I understand that in a in a show of television I would be showing things you’re talking about but some people are listening on radio and some of us I’m watching TV but the explanation of the water coming down the hill is important but now here we reach people and right now we have an election year last week I had a guy here who was appointed by the current mayor who has Gladys bison running the mayor the water department Dave Taylor we didn’t want to run the water department because he had a

17:47

perspective what’s going on water water is a crisis up country cesspool so we can hear about that people are talking about quality of water talking about injection wells and the quality their wastewater what are they doing bioenergy a plan it’s all very complex yeah yeah so Jason war let me ask you do you know what a cesspool is a cesspool is meant to take something and process it and eat it and be a I guess it would be an aerobic process to disintegrate something and changing it to something

18:25

harmless that’s what I would hope that’s not correct and that’s why some definitions are in order and we need to raise our collective IQ honest so a cesspool is a hole in the ground that’s all it is that you dump waste into it is not treatment it doesn’t process anything there’s no process it is a disposal method raw waste in the hole which goes into our groundwater which gets to our ocean and our streets rulz probably stopping that from being happen last year I think it was bill 125

19:03

by 2050 we have to get rid of all the cesspools now that to me is a little scary because if you look at the there’s a legislative report on the Department of Health website that you can actually see the maps we have all these cesspools right above our water supply and that one of the things they put out as nitrogen and nitrate which is a form of nitrogen can be toxic to humans at ten parts per million and we have some groundwater upcountry that’s greater than ten parts per million or approaching ten parts per million so

19:36

who’s in charge of that Department of Health and they you know they are working on trying to figure out how to get rid of all the cesspools but you know it’s going to take a lot of infrastructure because we need more what you were talking about which is actual treatment and they were saying one I think 1.7 billion dollars to get rid of all the cesspools and about 20,000 listening to Robin Knox who is I I want to call you a water specialist I’m Jason Schwartz one point seven billion dollars needed to correct the

20:20

problem that’s clearly not in our budget right how is that going to be addressed it’s a good question the options the options are too you can put in an on-site treatment system like a septic tank which is the next level of treatment but still not too great you could anaerobic treatment system which would be better that would be what’s called secondary treatment and then you could tie into you could put you know numerous houses you could hurry up with your neighbors and get a better unit for all of you together to share or

20:59

you could tie into a public system or a private system similar to what we already have so clearly public system costs are very expensive private system how’s that cost less or more well the cost that the Department of Health said to replace a cesspool with the septic paint tank is twenty thousand dollars but that’s a cost borne by the individual homeowner and I’ve heard estimates as high as fifty thousand depending on your geology and and your layout of your property and where they can put all the different components

21:32

where are those numbers coming from where the big numbers come from paying some company to do the work well you need engineers and you need construction and something they can boilerplate somewhat and bring the cost down there are some but there’s a lot of site-specific especially on septic systems a lot of site-specific engineering that needs to be done the reason I’m asking is in this new computer age I’ve seen these things with a show flow of piping on the phone you think it’s called flow or something so

22:08

if they can track where things are I’ve seen things where they put a sleeve inside old pipe areas I’ve seen all kinds of save actually done that on Maui somewhat yeah if we use the tech know we have maybe we can solve some of these problems right right and and these technologies the latest cut you know all it’s important to remember all of these technologies use the same processes that mother nature does the breaking down and transformation of chemicals you know all of that is the same whether it’s in a

22:47

wastewater treatment plant or out in the environment so it’s like how efficient can we make it and how can we deliver it to where it’s needed for a cost that we can afford those are big big issues and what I want to prevent what I see happening is people spending money to not get us where we need to be from a water quality standpoint I don’t want to spend yeah okay you want to spend I don’t want to spend $20,000 upgrading a cesspool to a septic tank when that’s not going to remove the nitrogen that’s killing the

23:18

ocean or the bacteria that make people sick well well if you don’t do that do we have to handle both problems and we don’t have an or right this problem with the u.s. homeowner who didn’t want to do that didn’t want to spend that money but who you are now forced to do that then there must be a way to put it into some kind of insurance plan and well that’s a separate well we’ll talk about it after the commercial and give our station a break and give us a chance to regroup

23:49

thank you guys for listening we’re take a you eight eight and a half I’m here with Robin Knox I’m Jason Schwartz hello people that love you you know I can’t find my cursor well there it is we’re in a new age here someone moving the cursor for me where this is ridiculous do you guys have the cursor there is no cursor what is this so we’re going to keep talking until they come in and turn on a commercial here’s one now the neutral zone is brought to you by our kind donor

24:34

cash-for-gold kama’aina loan at 52 and 98 North Market Street in Wailuku Maui two four two five five five five this is funny I’m gonna play some commercials if I can find the cursor you know when I say that I’m Ray Charles driving I didn’t mean it but in here when they say this station is automated they mean it’s automated if there’s no cursor and I can’t find the thing to play commercials you’re gonna have to listen to me we have lots of people that are donors to us one was cash for gold

25:16

car mine alone Richard Dan has been a friend of mine for oh gosh 30 years as long as I’m here he’s a wonderful man and he’s a bank for people that don’t have good credit they can put money in and out and if not they could just leave it there and they’ll sell it from their cash for gold Ben a lot of time and he’s a wonderful guy you know like he said don’t deal with me I’m a pawnbroker I’m supposed to buy a cheap I get that and then the mounting miracle here’s a

25:45

website the Maui miracle org if if our station is listening please come and help me hit the commercials here would you Malon miracle org is a a website that shows issues that show the heart of people because this is an election year and there’s a lot going on and this is important this this group felt a real importance to touch the land and be where Hawaiian is which is from the heart saving a beautiful place and thinking about it a soft and loving way like my partner Arielle who I’m looking

26:27

for our commercials but this is not commercial this is Ariel you’ll remember this ooh Thank You erielle I have a divine act of God in every cell of my being here and now very important that would be nice if I could see the cursor and give you some mid things we’re gonna go back into the show where the neutral zone ka qu I’m here with Robin Knox they may come in and decide we have a commercial break at some point you appreciate that yeah no problem no I probably steered you off-course well you

27:19

you were asking a good question Jason which is how are we going to pay for it and it is going to take not only private property owners handling their part of it but also there needs to be public funding and my funding available for a crisis that is statewide it could be funded by we could have a and B and HC&S and large landowners all became the bank without any money this could be paid for we could do this I don’t know about that but I know that my industry the water and wastewater industry has been

28:05

petitioning Congress for lobbying Congress we have a dog who thinks he’s digging into the dirt he’s trying to make a bed will be just a little while my friend he did for 20 years or more this industry has been lobbying Congress saying you need to put money into this Congress did in the 70s that’s how he got you know wastewater treatment plants in but we we need more now all they do a low-interest loans 1% interest loans so there’s an option we can get some loans at a reasonable interest rate you know

28:43

basically we fund a lot of things that are less important in my book than water so I think we can figure out how to fund i I think understanding what needs to be done is our biggest obstacle right now oh well that’s interesting because there’s way to fund it is this something that private sector can take control company group to take control put in home conversion cesspool intercept it’s a huge industry and my hometown of Baton Rouge Louisiana Water Resources Management is now the biggest economic

29:18

driver here there’s often there’s often a mindset that you know wastewater treatment for instance is a black hole where your money goes people don’t value clean water they don’t value the treatment not usually I think it’s better to you know work with what we all want I don’t think anyone wants polluted water I think when that’s happen I mean seriously how do we do what force it to happen and if it’s gonna happen we force it to happen that means if they’re going

29:56

to be tying into any system and they don’t have their water process well that’s at the end of the discussion but yes it need some of the things that I would like to teach people need to be incorporated into that planning into land-use planning into infrastructure decision making and right now I want you to start listening whenever you hear these discussions of a new development our new money for infrastructure I want to hear what they’re saying about water quality because they hardly ever mention

30:27

it and it’s water quality that sets the goal so how are we solving this problem when we don’t even know what the goal is that that’s the thing we could spend all this money and still have the reef dying from nitrogen because if we go in and do reuse without removing more nitrogen we may just be spreading the problem around and making it harder to deal with rather than dealing with one wastewater treatment that’s where our investments need to be what do you think of what they were talking about

31:00

we go is that that part of the discussion come on simmer down young man tui patting I see okay we’re just talking my friend he’s a very good service though he is here in service okay and he knows your passion you know just population growth for Maui we will need another 5 million gallons a day of treatment capacity but I think that’s by 2026 we will need another 7.9 million gallons per day of capacity to get rid of all those cesspools and I don’t even know for future tourism growth I couldn’t find good numbers on

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that but it’s about 700,000 gallons a day just for tourists I think it’s worth noting that that’s too much and that what I have seen is there is not a hundred percent processing it gets to what 80 percent and then the remaining 80 there is waste we don’t end up with no waste they try to get rid of waste in different ways last week our guests were talking about growing bio crop and create taking the bio crop and processing it to run their system and come out with pellets fertilizer there

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are a lot of good ideas out there and for instance reuse is a good idea but it’s none of these are the answer I think that’s the one mistake everyone makes no it’s it’s like you know you got to tweak things in a lot of different places like if you’ve ever managed a budget you could get rid of an entire department that would get your budget in line or maybe you get all the departments to contribute by getting more efficient and tweaking things here and there and that’s how it is with the

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water we would be better off to tweak and integrate our programs and our decision making than to just say oh we can only do this one part or we can’t do that part I think and I think last week even in there’s positions we’ll see whether they stay past the regime change I like them I like the programs that they’re working on and the way they’re going about it and they were open the more that’s I think your point that one technology and one thing doesn’t solve it we have a

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growing problem I like to think that decentralized power decentralized solutions a group of houses that come together with a solution a we work that way and that’s social sustainability will then create less yeah I think I think into the ocean and these other systems that will contain the good that we have and use it all differently right it’s going to take a number of options but we know already in West Maui where they’re reusing waste water and putting it on the golf course that wastewater is

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going into the groundwater it’s coming out in the lagoon and discharging into the ocean with nitrogen subsidies from that wastewater so if you don’t take that nitrogen out before you start reusing it you guys know what nitrogen subsidies that extra nitrogen extra growth very good the coral smother and make it grow toxic algae black algae bloom fish die yeah I’m just you know she talks like a scientist I’m trying to make it where it hurts if it doesn’t hurt people don’t hear it

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Joe Souki may he rest in in retirement Joe Souki said and I thought right people respond when you when you make it more difficult when gas prices go up we’ll think about mass transportation we have to give people a reason so now we have problems these problems have to be solved that’s why I said force them if we have to solve the water problem we solve the water problem you know it’s it’s not a matter of if it’s a matter of we do it’s not only we have of the streams of the

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cesspools and activate the companies that solve the problems we create a floating bond issue to do this and we do this and we do this and and we do where does all the talking happen in the neutral zone we need a neutral zone for water right now we’re in the silos you know where the decisions are not being well I think that the county needs to hire more environmental professionals I think the county needs water quality specialists who know how to integrate all of these programs right now and I

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want to be clear that I’m not saying that anything the county has done is bad I’m saying they need to do more the county was way ahead of the game on water reuse way before we knew how really serious the world’s nitrogen problem is you know so all of that’s good but reuse with all the infrastructure that goes with that costs ten times more than the treatment to remove the nitrogen and I think yeah reuse cause ten times more than the process to remove the nitrogen right so what does that mean with this what does

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that mean reuse of what of the of the wastewater which is what’s being done in Kihei Stewart was talking about that Kihei is going toward a hundred percent reuse how do we make it safe if you if you put in more advanced treatment biological nitrogen nutrient removal is one you can also do polishing with biological systems in central systems for what he’s got in other words well I think we’re gonna I think we’re gonna need all the systems I think we’re gonna need on-site it depends on your area

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on-site small regional plants the large you know County plants reuse is more expensive but it’s the way it’s the safest right safest until cork and these other systems be done and then we’d let out into the ocean and not use it for things where we really do need the water right if we take the nitrogen out then my concerns about the reuse are greatly reduced most people don’t know when they say r1 water that refers to bacterial quality and clarity of the water it doesn’t refer to nitrogen or toxic

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compounds or anything else that might be and is in that wastewater salts you know though it’s not just pure water yeah or is that what’s are we paying per day no we’re not we’re under threat of that because the Clean Water Act says if you have a point source like an injection well or a pipe and that pollution the pollutants are getting into a water of the u.s. like the ocean then you have to have a certain kind of permit and the county didn’t have that permit yeah all right so but what I’m saying in what

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you’re sharing is that people have told me that for example that you thought that the stuff coming out the injection was was toxic at a level that was poison and they they wave it like a flag so now I’m hearing from you is they’re doing some of that they’re going through it reuse is the stuff coming out of injection wells not getting it’s not getting penalized they’re threatening if it gets over a certain level no no if they don’t get the permit the permit would limit the levels of harmful

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pollutants and protect the ocean the permits are under now or safe drinking water act permits they only protect drinking water they don’t protect the ocean and drinking water can have a thousand times more nitrogen in it than the ocean water can tolerate so that’s the problem and and so there’s a lot of you know I will tell you there is on the Department of Health website a toxicity test that shows that the Lahaina effluent is toxic well that’s that’s powerful yeah to note because different

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information I mean now so that means it can come off line to do what Stewart’s talking at a great expense but they don’t have the money so it’s happening not I’m not sure exactly that part what you’re talking about we use it in key a we’re not really in Lahaina which is toxic because we don’t have an outsourced or that does cost too much money to do that yeah we can we can and should reuse it it costs a lot more money for reuse infrastructure than it does for nitrogen removal infrastructure

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I think if we clean up the water first that whoever needs the water will help pay for that infrastructure and who’d think about who needs large amounts of irrigation water how do we come up with the money here sudden though we didn’t right but I know what we I think we can I think for treatment yes I think we can definitely come up with that state revolving loan fund bond issues however every other country in the country every other city in the country treats their wastewater and so how do they do it you

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know the state there’s different agencies that handle different parts of that but the county of course if for their treatment plants would have the major responsibility so don’t we have it boiled down to a homeowner can go hear some business have to come out and do we have to have cooperation where makes this issue public where people can know where to go to do these things are we waiting until it gets to crisis like you say if we’re already there so I’m asking for the mechanism we can

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people in office we keep changing every couple of years I think it’s like I’ve said it and sounds like a joke but it’s not we’re moving deck chairs around on the right we don’t handle the problems we move things around we point fingers we think of excuses we have real grow excuse me am i yelling growing problems I think if the county assigned somebody the responsibility for water quality impacts of county decision-making that would go a long way that there would be some comprehensive

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overview of all these things that like Gladys prices position well right now she’s in Department of water and they’re in the silos so it may have to come from the top of the administration someone that would have the ability to interact with all the departments that are involved well I don’t know I don’t think that position exists it doesn’t know well right now the mayor has an environmental coordinator but if that coordinator for instance could hire a solid waste specialist a hazardous waste

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specialist of water quality specialists then we would be getting so that’s who’s in there at this point yes so yeah if he hired them someone has to implement something do they have the money available to do these things they have to be approved by a council that knows yeah the county council knows less about these issues so how do I educate them I’ve got the questions for you how do we educate the County Council and they want the power to make the decisions and not let the mayor get out fly out of hand

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which we’ve seen the man but you know it everybody the mayor the County Council the directors they’re all trying to do their part but there’s no comprehensive plan that protects the whole resource so how do we I’m talking to you world how do we and who do we create to be the one to help us or maybe it’s a group to help us coordinate them all is that something that you see any efforts like that happening in any way well one thing that’s good that needs we need more of is watershed planning to look at it on a

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watershed by watershed basis you know are we getting a lot of cesspool leakage into our water that’s affecting water quality are we having a lot of stormwater runoff you know you do have to look at it area by area because it’s different for each so if every watershed on Maui had watershed planning if we had a County office that did watershed planning that would be great and and that could start to get us looking more comprehensively when I hear that it frustrates me a little bit because to me that’s just yet another

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administrative decision block I’m trying to take away and maybe there’s the planning part takes time we’re in a crisis I like to say when in a crisis you don’t do non crisis things we’re in crisis there’s a homeless crisis there’s a problem well we got problems where if this turns we have a problem we can even in a crisis you have a plan you have an emergency plan to do that environmental guy like Rob hiring where’s all the money going what do mayor has all kinds of

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assistance is that because he’s got people you know I’m not an expert on the county budget but I know that we spend money on a lot of things like advertising to bring more tourists here maybe some of that money could go into protecting those resources that those tourists are coming to experience so you’re talking about somehow shifts in the resources we already have could take care of hiring of key people that could help coordinate these things they would have to somehow be granted power to

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influence sort of like a robert muller of the water the kevin costner let’s start that will hire Kevin Costner to be the robert muller of water world anyway no it’s it’s just some comprehensive understanding and you can do it with the existing structure if people can start to see this picture that I see as an environmental professional who specializes in water quality seeing that it’s all connected following the pollution just like we account for money we need to account for pollution and I’m we are talking so

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heavy this is ka kuat eight-and-a-half fm I’m Jason Schwartz this is the neutral zone here with Robin Knox Robin is a a water environmental I don’t want to call you a specialist you’re a consultant based on your experience doing and working with water systems in different state and here and consulting with different people you know we’re talking about subjects you can tell that I’m getting all hot and bothered and awful laughs you know first of all I found the button I can play the

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commercials so I’m going to go play the commercials better late than never we want to thank all the people that are being patient we’re gonna play a couple of minutes of commercials and come back and do a healthy ten minute wrap-up but I know that I’ve taken Robin through all kinds of ways I want to be sure that we cover all the ground that we find important are we covering a lot of things probably in a non-traditional way I’m just very far about this subject you know I I can talk about using hydrogen

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in a plasma condition to evacuate everything from water there are systems that are available that can go on your counter to do things to process water that’s another show all right things are going on in this world that’s why I say technology is helping us solve this in unique ways I’m hearing what we’re talking about here and I’m gonna come back to it I’ll talk to you off break get ready here comes some really important information the male youth now shown focusing on new

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culture today this weekly half-hour show is produced by and created for you taking the pulse of youth culture from an island perspective watch local news current events fun challenges trending videos game reviews and learn about other youth in your community new episodes air on Tuesday at 4:30 p.m. on aqua 255 or catches on Vimeo preparing for death can change your life I’m Bodhi be join me on death tracks the show about wholehearted and sacred living and dying we will follow tracks make tracks and

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play musical tracks as we explore aging dying and death we’ll have interviews and time for Collins from our listeners join the conversation every Tuesday from 3 to 5 p.m. here on 88.5 FM kak you the voice of Maui funding for kak u 88.5 FM is provided by sponsors live jim Fulke motors of Maui with sales and service on new and pre-owned vehicles open six days a week located at 260 Hana Highway in Kahului for more information visit Jim vault GM comm or call 808 2 702 600 thanks again to jim Falk motors of Maui for

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making the voice of Maui’s broadcast possible have you or someone you know been diagnosed with cancer according to American Cancer Society an average of 19 people a day are diagnosed with cancer in Hawaii Pacific Cancer Foundation is a nonprofit organization that provides free support services for Maui’s cancer community visit our website for a list of programs or to make a donation we are all in this together call today – 4 – 766 1 or visit our website Pacific cancer foundation org [Music]

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melissa from michigan i work an extra part-time job serving lunch at my child’s school but i still can’t afford to put food on our table daniel from california choosing whether to pay the rent or pay to fix the car to get to work doesn’t leave us with much at all now we can’t even pay for meals hunger is a story we can end end it at feeding america org brought to you by feeding America and the Ad Council okay aku 88.5 FM is your Maui community station the voice of Maui features great

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local programming from people like Cimmerian Laraway eat the envy Takamiya companions can awareness escucha un programa Gino de diversión entretenimiento emu chain formación latina/o tato yati punto cinco a famine Latino connection Fridays at noon K aku 88.5 the voice of Maui yeah this is Jason Schwartz we’re back here on the neutral zone with Robin Knox kak you the voice of Maui 88.5 we have a reach that we can reach down to the corner so hopefully you’re listening on our website a ka ka org or you’re listening

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on Facebook live or you’re listening to a repeat or you’re going to Maui neutral zone calm and you’re seeing this show and other shows the show will be up by tomorrow and it’s up on Facebook it’s everywhere but what’s most important is I am here with Robin we’ve been going on bouncing off the wall when you try to keep me on a subject I jump all around because I get passionate and I it’s not that I don’t hear you I think that some people will accuse me of cutting you off when you

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were trying to give information but someone all Ariel told me facts tell stories sell and it’s sadly the story of problems people have had with water in all kinds of ways that we don’t want to talk about too much but it’s a real problem and it’s a real problem that deserves enough attention on the stories and the problem so that people say it’s my responsibility to do something for my SAS pool it is my idea I want to talk to my neighbors in the area let’s talk about how much it’s gonna cost and we’re

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gonna do this and we’re gonna float a deal and then it’s up to people like us who have creative bond sources to start putting up a trumpet with this is where you find solutions people and if not we take some of our local landowners and they already are banks but we turn them into banks lending banks that pay for some of the things that we need to implement these programs how are our kids reacting you know this is all one giant mish mosh when they see problems that they’re left with and they know it

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has to be handled they’re being handled to work they get a world that the water sucks we’re allowed to say sucks things are crazy here and they’re over the top and young kids don’t know what’s happening do we give up or do we decide to become superheroes I think it’s time to become superheroes all of us in our own right in everything that we do in honoring water is one of them we didn’t get into today my favorite thing which is water for health I have a friend up country his name is John Beatty he has

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designed a constant control hydrolize ER water creator that creates hho and hho plasma high state of water hydrogen and it’s medical health benefits for ingestion into water and capsulation those are other uses of basic things we have ways of creating power from water we have think water is amazing thing it is we also need to drink it we need to deal with it we need to clean it and we’re gonna leave our kids a world of any kind you want them to be a fish left do you want to be able to drink do you

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want to be able to function you want to you know we talked about tourists you talk about future tourist growth Nik entrants made me understand the word carrying capacity and I hear the people talking about what are we doing to this place how much is enough when do we stop prices are going up because we need affordable housing there’s homeless problems this is the fire is burning people this is emergency right that’s that’s why I get like I do here with water we call the with water like here

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well here’s in a nutshell we need to move from a place of being ashamed of our wastewater to being proud of it when we can do that we will be taking full advantage of that resource they don’t even call it wastewater treatment anymore they call it water resource recovery and that’s where we need to head and that is where we’re headed but we could do better with some more comprehensive approaches that’s what I want to teach people about comprehensive approaches and we can do better and on a

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very individual basis don’t pollute and on a very individual basis consider it important to find answers and look for the answers to what to do with upcountry cesspools think what we got to do we have a minute left ask the right questions and keep asking them and yeah go away and you know we’re not gonna go away and that’s why we don’t book things too far in advance we’ll see we have on next week cuz we’re gonna just keep on talking about issues until we solve all the problems and let the government help

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us you know this is the neutral zone and we’re here every week Mondays at 11:00 and all the different media ways were found Robin you’ve been a terrific guest I know that do you have an email that people can contact you or some way people get in touch with you right on on Facebook or Gmail Robin dot s dot Knox ro bi n dot s dot KN o X at gmail.com I’m Jason Schwartz don’t you love it when we run out of [Music]