Possibly The Most hated man on Maui

Jason Schwartz with KURT BUTLER . Kurt is a writer and author of investigative analysis of alternative medicine practices. Self described as “possibly The Most hated man on Maui, he champions skeptics of alternative medicine, vitamins, acupuncture… prolific writer online..http://MauiNeutralZone.com is where you can see our other shows.3-4-2019

1. 1. 1. “The Neutral Zone with Jason Schwartz and Kurt Butler”

1. 1. 1. 1. [00:01 → 01:22] Introduction and Public Safety Message

The video begins with a public safety announcement emphasizing the importance of using the correct car seats for children aged 1 to 13. It highlights that car crashes happen quickly and without time for thought, making proper child safety seats essential. Viewers are encouraged to get accurate information from safercar.gov to ensure their children’s safety.

1. 1. 1. 1. [01:22 → 03:14] Show Introduction and Guest Introduction

Jason Schwartz introduces the show “The Neutral Zone,” a platform intended to foster open dialogue without fixed opinions, welcoming all perspectives. His guest, Kurt Butler, is introduced; they have a history of prior collaboration. Kurt characterizes himself as often disliked for his opinions, especially on Maui, where he is at odds with popular local views. He admits he is not neutral, which contrasts with the show’s ethos.

1. 1. 1. 1. [03:14 → 05:33] Topic Introduction: Energy Medicine and Media Complicity

Kurt Butler brings up a recent full-page advertisement in the Honolulu Star-Advertiser promoting an energy medicine seminar led by “Dr. Sandra Rose Michael,” who falsely claims doctoral and PhD qualifications. He exposes her as an unqualified fraud who promises healing for all ailments remotely and telepathically, with no scientific basis. Kurt criticizes the media’s complicity in promoting such scams because they profit from selling advertising space to questionable health practitioners, thereby neglecting investigative journalism.

1. 1. 1. 1. [05:33 → 11:41] Critique of Energy Medicine and Testimonials

The discussion delves into the nebulous concept of “energy medicine,” which lacks measurable evidence. Kurt shares his experience interviewing Sandra Rose Michael and his skepticism about her claims. They critique testimonials, noting that they lack scientific validation and often serve as marketing rather than proof. Terms like Reiki and therapeutic touch are called out as pseudoscientific practices with no demonstrable effect. Kurt notes that practitioners avoid challenges to prove their abilities under controlled conditions because they cannot.

1. 1. 1. 1. [11:41 → 15:51] Personal Anecdotes and Distinction Between Science and Quackery

Kurt acknowledges some historical scientific studies on auras and energetic fields, such as those by Dr. Valerie Hunt at UCLA, but distinguishes these from unproven modern energy medicine claims. He underscores the pervasiveness of quackery driven by financial motives rather than scientific validation. He contrasts this with legitimate emerging therapies like hydrogen therapy, which have measurable effects and ongoing research. The segment closes with Kurt emphasizing that many scam artists exploit vague health concepts for profit, with media often turning a blind eye due to financial interests.

1. 1. 1. 1. [15:51 → 17:59] Media’s Role in Promoting Unproven Health Claims

Kurt elaborates on the media’s longstanding pattern of uncritically promoting alternative medicine claims, citing the example of acupuncture’s rise in popularity following Bill Moyers’ PBS series, which he criticizes as poor journalism that contributed to widespread misconceptions. Despite no solid scientific evidence supporting acupuncture’s foundational concepts, the media often covers such topics enthusiastically without critical analysis, perpetuating public misinformation.

1. 1. 1. 1. [17:59 → 21:14] Acupuncture and the Problem of Proof

Jason and Kurt discuss acupuncture’s ambiguous scientific status. Kurt points out that no one has ever empirically demonstrated the existence of acupuncture points, meridians, or “qi” (energy flow). He likens the inconsistent identification of acupuncture points by practitioners to an anatomical mystery that defies logic. Jason shares his own limited personal experience with acupuncture, acknowledging some anecdotal benefits but stressing the need for measurable clinical proof. The hosts agree that health is a complex and subjective area, prone to placebo effects and difficult to measure rigorously.

1. 1. 1. 1. [21:14 → 27:57] Media Bias and Availability of Kurt Butler’s Resources

Kurt critiques the overwhelmingly positive media coverage of alternative medicine, highlighting that about 95% of coverage lacks critical perspective. He offers his free e-books on media and health fraud, available on Smashwords, and invites listeners to explore his extensive blogs and social media for a deeper understanding of these issues. He stresses that many alternative medicine beliefs function like religious faith, making scientific proof difficult to demand or accept. The hosts emphasize the need for consumer protection and critical thinking.

1. 1. 1. 1. [27:57 → 31:20] Radio Show Promotions and Community Announcements

The show takes a brief interlude to promote local Maui organizations and events, including the Maui Arts and Music Association and caregiver health programs. They also promote the Grateful Dead radio program on KAKU 88.5 FM, emphasizing the station’s role as a community voice and platform for diverse opinions.

1. 1. 1. 1. [31:20 → 34:59] Discussion on Personal Health, Organic Food, and Gardening

Jason and Kurt share personal health philosophies focused on walking, plant-based diets, and gardening. They discuss the environmental and potential health benefits of organic farming, acknowledging some skepticism about the extent of health impacts. Gardening is celebrated as a fulfilling and health-promoting activity. They note challenges faced due to restrictive housing or land use policies limiting gardening opportunities.

1. 1. 1. 1. [34:59 → 38:44] Medical Marijuana Debate and Local Police Chief’s Views

The conversation shifts to local controversies surrounding medical marijuana. Kurt references a recent statement by Maui’s police chief opposing medical marijuana, claiming the pharmaceutical Marinol is a non-psychoactive alternative, which Kurt corrects as factually incorrect because Marinol contains psychoactive THC. They discuss concerns about marijuana’s risks and benefits, the stigma around its use, and the politics surrounding legalization debates. The hosts express openness to inviting the police chief for a future interview.

1. 1. 1. 1. [38:44 → 44:07] Acupuncture Risks, Misuse, and Personal Stories

Kurt recounts tragic stories where reliance on acupuncture led patients to stop essential medications, resulting in preventable deaths. He highlights the dangers when acupuncturists advise patients to abandon conventional treatments without medical supervision. The segment stresses the urgent need for regulation and consumer protection to prevent harm caused by unqualified practitioners making unfounded claims about curing serious diseases.

1. 1. 1. 1. [44:07 → 47:07] Acknowledging Some Benefits While Warning Against Misuse

Jason expresses that while he is not qualified to judge all benefits, he acknowledges some people experience benefits from acupuncture, especially for pain management. Both hosts agree that acupuncturists should never advise patients to abruptly stop medications. They discuss the motivations behind practitioners entering alternative medicine, sometimes due to dissatisfaction or inability to enter traditional medical fields, and the influence of powerful lobbying groups promoting alternative therapies despite lack of strong evidence.

1. 1. 1. 1. [47:07 → 49:48] Dietary Supplements Industry and Legislative Challenges

Kurt outlines the history of regulatory battles over supplement claims. Despite attempts to regulate false health claims, consumer and industry pushback led to the 1994 Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act, which largely deregulated supplements, allowing many unverified claims. The supplement industry remains powerful, often opposing labeling laws and quality controls, resulting in inconsistent product contents and misleading marketing.

1. 1. 1. 1. [49:48 → 53:43] Motivation Behind Kurt Butler’s Advocacy

Kurt explains his motivation as a personal responsibility akin to witnessing a burglary and calling the police. He feels compelled to warn the public about health fraud despite widespread indoctrination and media complicity. He shares an anecdote about being invited to a CBS show on alternative medicine, where he refused to promote unsubstantiated cures and instead offered examples of harm, leading to his exclusion from the program. This exemplifies how media often favors sensationalism and positive coverage over critical inquiry.

1. 1. 1. 1. [53:43 → 57:35] Closing Remarks and Invitation to Future Shows

The interview ends with Kurt reiterating his openness to evidence and dialogue. He encourages listeners to critically evaluate health claims and seek substantiated information. Jason thanks Kurt for his candidness and invites him to return for future discussions, possibly involving other guests with different perspectives. They promote their website and radio station as ongoing platforms for diverse and thoughtful conversations on health and social issues.

Key Insights

• The video is a critical examination of alternative medicine, particularly energy medicine and acupuncture, emphasizing the lack of scientific proof for many claims.
• Media outlets often promote unproven health therapies due to financial incentives, perpetuating public misinformation.
• Testimonials and anecdotal evidence are insufficient substitutes for rigorous clinical proof.
• Consumer protection in health claims is weak compared to other industries, enabling widespread health fraud.
• The discussion balances skepticism with acknowledgment that some alternative approaches may provide subjective benefits, especially in pain management.
• The supplement industry remains largely unregulated, allowing misleading claims and inconsistent product quality.
• Kurt Butler’s advocacy stems from a commitment to truth and public safety, despite resistance from mainstream media and alternative medicine proponents.
  • • Keywords

Alternative medicine, energy medicine, acupuncture, Reiki, therapeutic touch, health fraud, media bias, consumer protection, dietary supplements, medical marijuana, public safety, health claims, scientific proof, placebo effect, regulatory legislation, Maui community.

This detailed structured summary captures the essence of the entire discussion as per the original transcript’s flow and content.

01:22

[Applause] please [Music] that wasn’t Mick Jagger that was me this is Jason Schwartz I have a great guest today thank you for being here at the show everyone where the neutral zone which means we like to think that when we’re here we don’t have any fixed opinions and we’re not blocking any opinions and we’re not stopping anyone from communicating about things so that we have a holistic view of everything we want all views and opinions and I met someone that I’d done a show with years

02:04

ago Kurt Butler and Kurt is here with us if you have any interest in calling us the number for callin is eight oh eight eight seven three three four three five you may see it up on the screen on occasion if you don’t see me answering the phone someone may come in and whack me because I can’t hear through these headphones clearly but Alan but we’ll get at it Kurt thank you for joining me here thank you Jason really nice to be with you here on this glorious day it is a glorious day Kurt um I don’t even I

02:40

was trying to think of when we met it was probably years ago and somehow you must have seen me yapping about something and you had an opinion and I said sure let’s do a show and we did a show and I don’t exactly even remember specifically but I remember you sort of like to think of yourself I or at least you think that you think of yourself as someone who people don’t like your opinions and throw daggers when that’s right Tigers right I do believe that I at times have been the most hated person

03:14

on Maui and this is because my opinions I am NOT neutral this is you know your neutral zone I’m not neutral no that’s why it’s anything but neutral opinions and my opinions raise some hackles especially here on Maui where certain ideas seem to hold sway the general philosophy of the general public and the media is a certain way and my opinions and my feelings about this particular issue are very very different I’m very much in tune with most Mao ends in terms of environmental protection and

03:56

impeach Donald Trump and that kind of stuff but there is a particular area of interest to people here where I’m just said loggerheads with almost everybody okay and let’s identify the area just okay let me illustrate first with a full-page newspaper a few days ago and the Honolulu star-advertiser all right this is an advertisement for energy medicine seminar and session led by dr. Sandra Rose now this is free to go there but of course she’ll try to sell you all kinds of stuff while you’re there this

04:46

woman calls herself dr. Sandra Rose Michael dnm PhD dcs she is not a doctor she has no qualification she’s not a PhD she has no qualifications to call herself a doctor or to claim any kind of expertise in any kind of health area and yet she claims she can help you with every health problem you might have no matter what literally and now it just so happens it just so happens while she was on Maui someone said to me oh you have to interview Sant dr. Sandra Michael I’m sure this is the same way

05:33

yeah yeah that was I’ve got to say a couple few years ago I don’t know if you saw my show with her but we sat in front of screens that somehow were attuned and I wasn’t really sure and this environment created an environment that was a healing environment I what people talking I always like to think that someone will substantiate and I don’t know if you want to call it proof but I’m basically I reduce things that could have give some evidence this woman has she made her claims are

06:09

so utterly preposterous that claims that she make this well she claims she can help you with every health problem you have through so-called energy medicine and she can do it through you from a distance from a from miles away without ever having met you without knowing nothing about your medical history she can telepathically heal you now and all you have to do is send in your name and your money and it’s so amazing that people fall for this kind of I’m curious because energetic medicine I’m actually I have

06:50

no chiropractors and doctors and things well it’s a very vague term what is there’s no there’s no share with you proof like I have a friend who uses lasers cold lasers and things like that and he has different equipment that’s fairly significant to be able to track different systems in the body to track as he’s doing things how they make an impact over time he deals with people but he also deals with animals and animals are a perfect subject in that they don’t talk back or and they don’t

07:25

go out and eat a candy bar on this house on the sly you know so let me finish about this Sandra Michael that this like I say is a full-page ad and the Star Advertiser it must have cost many thousands of dollars so do you think that if I were a Julie and I had not just yeah it’s a full-page ad and of course if I were to write I write in a letter criticizing this exposing her as a scam artist that the paper would never run it the paper would never send its own investigative journalists to take a

07:57

good look and expose her for the scam artist as she is so this shows that the tie-in between the media and the health scam industries well you’re tying it to the fact that because money comes in there selectively not doing their job as investigate absolutely okay I’m sure other people have that same opinion just so happens in the area of energetic medicine do you ever meet a gal on this island named dr. Deborah Greene she’s a doctor she’s a medical doctor or um she’s a doctor I

08:35

mean there’s so many people on this island calling themselves doctors they’re based on mail-order diploma degrees in nutrition or just any number of totally scam alleged diplomas so in other words you’re saying that the qualification to put a doctor on your name and many times PhD doctor rather than medical doctor and then having these people this is one specifically make claims that have no way to substantiate what they’re talking about and that the public is out there going give me more give me more and in that

09:17

did they have testimonials from people that have expressed a right that their testimonials in here and that could all just be made up for all anybody knows well let’s assume for a moment they’re real there anything in there that that was substantiate in a way that served you are not really not any of them did any of them say well you know I had my medical test before and had my medical test after and my goodness did I see a difference that’s what I’m talking about now there’s mostly a lot of sloganeering

09:49

like this new concept is oh no that’s not a I’m sorry that’s not a testimonial the we’re here with Kirk Butler and the neutral zone I’m Jason Schwartz kak u radio 88.5 okay here’s a testimonial I’m sorry go ahead please I have tried this this woman’s write it there’s a picture of her and a quote below who knows that she really said this reason who she is I’m assuming I have tried the technology and my knee pain went away and I didn’t need the surgery I can walk my dog a mile and a

10:28

half with no pain that means absolutely nothing absolutely nothing well again I agree with you sometimes testimonials are unsubstantiated in fact most of the time because in the era especially of energetic medicine where there’s no area of proof that is easily available many people make statements and they may actually believe what they say even but there’s nothing to really test and substantiate the right test and substantiate you know these people who call themselves energy healers there’s

11:05

ray Kay there’s therapeutic touch which is very strange name for something in which you absolutely don’t touch the person let’s call it beauty touch therapeutic touches like raking you hold your hands near but not on right and now I have ever experienced I have challenged body I have challenged these people to prove that they can tell a live body from a corpse none of them will accept this challenge because they can’t it’s all phony they do not detect energy the their clients lying on the

11:41

table there with their eyes closed they can’t tell if this Reiki practitioner or energy touch of practitioners hands are close to you or not tests have shown nobody can tell there is no aura that these people can feel or that um oh you open to thinking that there maybe people that have sensitive I’m open to evidence and I’m open to proof so now that I myself am NOT defending here but I do know that I have seen proof of energetic medicine I’ve seen on aura my brother study with dr. Valerie

12:22

Hunt and years ago in actually at UCLA when they were studying energetic medicine and this is before I got married he actually my brother he had epilepsy when we were kids and he developed this uncanny sense of being able to see auras if you want to call them that around that’s why when he went to college he was the teaching assistant for rosalind Briere and Valerie hunt what is it are so somebody has double vision is that an aura so you have answering unless you have a lot of men after images okay now if you take if if

13:08

you have say you have a white poster or white wall in front of you if you look away and look at something bright red for Oh 15 seconds and then look at the blank wall you will see a blue bluish greenish image which is the complementary color the opposite so I mean all kinds of things happen with your vision no disputing means there are many things and people that in my opinion just sort of like your opinion people claim a lot of stuff and some people claim it without any substantive proof and many of the people that make

13:49

those claims really aren’t interested in the science of it all they are interested in the money of it all yes but I do know people that that because of that for give you an example it’s different but it’s the same there’s a machine right now that in the world Japan China the world has over the last decades minimum found that hydrogen and hho hydrogen was called Browns gas got all kinds of names has healing effect and they’ve used that successfully to treat people with a myriad of diseases so hydrogen it’s not

14:31

like energy something you can measure and what’s a brainer well there are three ways to get hydrogen either infused into water delivery or breathing it or encapsulation like you have a rash or something so you encapsulate into a bag and put the the gas into it now you know sometimes I’m using that’s a physical thing where you’re talking about something has that you can’t really measure but this doctor is interested he works with lasers you know a lot of things that were way ahead of

15:07

proof that’s why I’m bringing it up so as I introduce this to him I know him for twenty something years he wants to get a machine and prove it exactly what you’re saying to be able to see in a meaningful way I think that it would be very interesting to see and how to find someone like Sandra well it’ll or others any others I mean I know that this is a great and a very clear example of proof not proof by expression without anything substantive it’s just claims it’s just this is the classic con-artist quackery

15:51

BS that millions of people are in gay you know quackery is the world’s oldest profession it’s probably also the world’s most profitable and the oldest profession is the no quackery is – a hookers but okay that but anyway this example I just gave of reasons the media will not tell you the truth about these things they have too much of a stake in it and they always have from the earliest days of radio the radio stations paid their bills by selling ads to hucksters of all kinds of snake oil so you’re thinking that for

16:35

example if we were supported by well if we were these guys we wouldn’t be able to openly be talking like we are right I’ve tried to comment to Star Advertiser about that ad and they they won’t reply they won’t run my letter they won’t have anything to do with it they that is an essential part of their business model is to sell ads to scam artists and most scam artists really just days goes on in the health field because health is such a vague thing there’s so many foot blurry lines there’s so much fuzziness

17:13

to it there’s some a subjectivity to it that it’s easy pickings for con artists who are you know of glib tongue but anyway this this problem with the media which I’ve been following for at least thirty years that they universally almost unanimously almost always favor and promote any controversial health ideas for example when acupuncture started becoming a big thing be partly because of Bill Moyers book and PBS series healing and the mine which was just a horrendous piece of phony pseudo

17:59

journalism the worst journalism you can imagine google Moyers book Bill Moyers book in his PBS series with that with all these claims about healing and acupuncture anesthesia and the whole American media just went nuts with it and that gonna have revolutions in the hospital no more dangerous anesthetics we’re going to use a key none of that ever happened because it was all baloney from the very beginning have you ever had acupuncture bike sample yourself no okay I have but I’m not gonna use me as an

18:35

example because I didn’t have any real healing needed I didn’t think at the time but I can tell you that when I was so gosh 30-something years ago my wife was studying to be a doctor of ocupado and herbs in Los Angeles and went to California acupuncture College and they were treating people in sports medicine to relieve pain now sometimes that can be shown and you immediately see results that needles put into different places it’s thousands of years old so obviously there’s a lot of astrology as thousands

19:17

of years old I don’t by this age argument no one’s gonna tell me that something is so many thousands of years old there or say sure okay well we don’t have to buy that but I’m just sharing that I have physically seen she had a carpal tunnel thing they were gonna operate and through three treatments things changed I’m not going to describe what happened because I don’t know well I say health is a very difficult vague fuzzy area as measured by the fact that the carpal tunnel syndrome so now I’m

19:53

not saying that after all these years there should be very good solid clinical studies evidence published in major science medicine journals you can’t just take one example of a person you can’t say this person had cancer and I put this saliva from this dog on on her head and the cancer went away that there’s nothing that’s just nonsense talking all right well again I’m I wouldn’t be surprised now that we’re discussing it it people might not come forward to at least share different things that they

20:31

consider proof okay let me share this let me share this yeah this problem with the media like all this morning talk shows the anchors they they’re just universally and I actually kept track of this for several months every time there was a feature on so-called alternative medicine be it energy healing Reiki acupuncture naturopathy chiropractic the hosts the people running the show were always super enthusiastic never a negative word and actually through the I’d say the last 30 years media coverage

21:14

of these things has been at least 95 percent positive and only five percent critical and this is a real pity because now the public has been so indoctrinated that things are being legalized that are actually fraud and so you have these so-called practice health practitioners who are doing things that if a medical doctor were to do were to do them he or she would lose the medical license I mean there is so much fraud in this alternative medicine nonsense but anyway as far as the media covers let me let me

21:54

give the your listeners this information I have two free e-books available okay and they’re available at Smashwords dot-com Smashwords com Smashwords and just put it put my name Kurt Butler in the search box and the two books will come up one is a book called line for fun and profit the truth about the media actually I’m not like Trump I think the media do a very good job on most issues they do a good job on on environmental issues on political issues but on health issues right they are just falling down

22:34

and and and totally unprofessional and total unethical and it’s because of their unethical commercial ties to the health fraud industries that they do this would you think that some are you open to seeing something I’ve always been open you know people through the years have called me Merrill my it because you want proof I wouldn’t think that would be a reason because a lot of these fervently held idea is that people hold are basically religious ideas acupuncture and this is religion written into state

23:14

law which is completely unconstitutional the definition of acupuncture in the state law books in the statute defines acupuncture I don’t remember the exact definition but defines acupuncture is a technique of using fine needles to move key around in the meridians the eye access is the fine yeah meridians right is a defense and and now the problem is that none of these things has ever been proved to exist there is I don’t think that’s true though no there are no one has ever shown that acupuncture point

24:01

exists no one has ever shown that these meridians exist no one has ever demonstrated the existence of this key the the these you know energy through the years energy through the years if there’s a new kind of energy physicists know how to detect it and measure it you know physicists can now photograph not just a single molecule but a single atom and even given that power no one has ever discovered an acupuncture point or angular already some information on yeah and yet cuz what are we gonna do when

24:40

when there is no evidence that there is this alternative physiology with this network of meridians that no one has ever well are we gonna put this in the textbooks are we gonna teach this nonsense to school kids well again either that there’s been no things that have identified the proofs I’m not saying that everyone that’s doing it has the ability to measure what they’re doing but I’ve seen people measure things in ways that are quantitative not saying that that there isn’t hocus-pocus in quackery going on

25:20

that I know and you know a lot of people are very very non proof look acupuncturist themselves do not even agree how many acupuncture points there are or exactly where they are without those they’ll claim anywhere from 180 to 200 acupuncture points and these are the experts that’s like an anatomist saying well humans have two arms maybe they have a we’re not sure I’ve never heard that I never heard anyone question the meridians only or of course you have it’s the me as the media had loved to

26:00

totally indoctrinated the entire public imagine everyone would like to understand and if do you think that people would go to occupy Chur if they didn’t know it was gonna help them maybe you think they would keep going if they didn’t know if it was helping them well we don’t have figures on how many people do keep going but a lot of people just like attention you know acupuncture is is a rather dramatic theatrical placebo that’s what it is you know if if people had been and draw

26:41

indoctrinated to believe in any kind of magical ritual and insurance paid for it they go for it I’m gonna break it only cuz we’re gonna take get our sponsors and what do we call them here our supporters we’re gonna give them recognition and we’ll come back to this but I just know that your references about non proof I think it’s possible but I’ve seen people that are that come from a place of proof and I would love to be able to share it with you not there to in any way diminish

27:21

what you’re saying because a lot of claims are made what I do think on there we’re on the air now we want to come back or you want to mention it now and then we’re gonna run in a few seconds yeah well okay you got smash fours calm for the two books my all my blogs and there are a couple dozen of them Kurt Butler blogs dot blog spot.com Kurt Butler blogs dot blog spot.com right and my twitter handle is at Maui Liberty so when you are making these statements those statements of opinion just like

27:57

you say these guys are giving their opinions they don’t have any proof well I’m making st. Mis of fact no one has ever discovered an acupuncture point it would be headline news all over the world it’s already had we’re gonna go to our break and then I’ll come back oh see we can just yes all right okay we’re here with Kirk Butler I’m Jason Schwartz let’s go to our station sponsors and supporters right now the neutral zone with me Jason Schwartz would like to thank Maui Arts and Music Association

28:29

tree makers Foundation of Maui for their support since 1990 hundreds of television shows and their maui arts and music comm website they have champion self-sustainability on maui the neutral zone has earned live mondays at 11 a.m. and replayed Saturday at 7 a.m. on kak u 88.5 FM the voice of maui do you have a nonprofit event coming up that you would like the public to know about is there an important social issue for each would like to raise awareness you can connect you get the word out you can kill me in and

29:06

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of being a caregiver Shirley’s eye care program which stands for I create a restorative experience focuses on improving caregiver health and well-being salons are held Thursday evenings from 6 to 8 p.m. in the media lab suite 204 but we do request the to RSVP at eight seven one five five five four just to let us know if you’re coming The Grateful Dead played a different setlist at every show since no two concerts were ever the same on stage the same goes with the Grateful Dead radio program on kak you 88.5 FM

30:04

Saturday night at 8:00 and Sunday night at 9:00 it’s dead air it’s an hour of killer recording stories from the tapirs section tall tales from the parking lot and I’ll throw in an interview from time to time hey I’m Corey Daniel Saturday night at 8:00 and Sunday night at 9:00 you’ll get dead air on kak u 88.5 FM it’s a voice of Maui don’t challenge your authority because that’s what kids do but this car is your territory and then here your word is law so when you say you won’t move until

30:35

everyone’s buckled up you won’t budge innate until you hear that quick never give up until they buckle up a message from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Ad Council for more information visit safercar.gov/therightseat well we are back Aloha this is Jason Schwartz I’m here with Kirk Butler in the neutral zone 88.5 FM are kaku’s radio station I should say but kak you the voice of Maui well we’re gonna get these shows on TV and when we do we’re gonna have I want to call it b-roll

31:20

where when we’re talking about things we’re gonna be putting them up on the screen so you can see what we’re talking about and we’re gonna let our audience in the television world know about our radio station I hope that all of you will share with people you know that kak you 88.5 FM is their radio station it’s a radio station for all of us to express our opinions of all kinds you know Curt I am happy to be here with you I really very much agree with you that the health world has a lot of stuff

31:54

going on that are not proven but over the years I have both personally had experience with some of these things I haven’t had an occupant or specifically treatment myself that’s helped but I can’t deny what happened 35 years ago and I know that they were ready to operate and then didn’t have it wasn’t needed and they could see physical differences that was years ago and when I mentioned that I was going to be on with someone who was refuting architecture I had a couple of occupant

32:27

or say oh but I know that even if you were to sit in the same room with them unless they could show you proof that’s and I appreciate you want proof just like the scientists would want proof some measurable way to see that this is what’s causing the change all right clinical results right so I’m gonna do my homework and see if I could find something like that yeah help email it to me just wait it to me how much your email address you want to give that to our audience I’m a little nervous about

32:59

giving that you have my car what was the Twitter you had a cut order handle is at Maui Liberty okay okay no we we did our thing probably gosh 20 years ago you look as young as you did then a half of thank you how do you do when you’re not sitting on the radio with me I jog and walk a lot I believe walking you know was worth that was my worm at to walk give you his bus pass thank you and I also believe in eating right which means eating a lot of whole minimally process mostly plant food I eat a little seafood occasional egg

33:46

low-fat milk but mostly I ate fruits and vegetables and grains and organic as you try right I I don’t think the organic label means that much I actually read an article this morning again that they did a test that showed that people that eat organic have a less risk of cancer and they mentioned a few other things this is again statistics what they found over the years I think they say it’s because less pesticides and whatever we say I think that organic has at least given everyone a drive back to what is natural

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and and things that are safer for us all I think it’s it can be healthy could be used deceitfully as well again like you talked about marketing a lot well the jury I think the jury’s still out on the health benefits there are definitely some environmental benefits to the organic farming movement I’m an avid gardener myself I don’t live where I can have a garden right now but when I lived on a Wahoo I grew all kinds of papayas and bananas and tomatoes and it’s a wonderful hobby and profession and

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I admire small farmers who have the guts to get out there and give it a try everyone should give it a try and there’s nothing like fresh growing homegrown fruits and vegetables by everyone that I’ve met that’s healthy there was a gentleman here last week do you know a dr. Sasha lesson no well he would be an interesting conversation with you he’s 77 years old drives from Moy a who on his bicycle to Baldwin Beach rain or shine every day and his first thing he said out of his mouth

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about how he stays that way is he has a garden and people that need out of their garden and don’t eat processed foods are generally that I’ve seen healthier you know it can be lots of reasons now I once had a garden a few years ago that had a variety of peas and beans corn arugula cabbage lettuce tomatoes and sometimes around sunset I would just go out in that garden and just start picking and eating from the garden I just have my salad you know on foot and we all should have that experience in

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our lives and like you say maybe I’ve seen farming things you know maybe they’re not allowed wherever we are you know they only allow us to plants where I live only two pots mmm you know it’s like if you don’t have a house you got to live by somebody else’s rules yeah but but I tell you I also love growing things and eating from my own garden was a great pleasure by the way this reminds me of a totally unrelated subject there was an article in the maui time a couple weeks ago and

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it quoted the chief of police fool mo as saying that this whole medical marijuana thing is is a bad idea there’s already medical marijuana it’s a prescription drug called Marinol and that’s what loli follows and he says you can get all about fits of medical marijuana but it doesn’t get you high now the fact of the matter is marinol is at the pharmaceuticals version of Delta 9 THC it is pure Delta 9 THC it is what gets you high in whether I marijuana on all sides of the medical marijuana and marijuana issue

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that were at odds with the Chiefs statements and letter and they’ve been taking shots at him here in different kinds well I’ve just been puzzled for years about this whole debate about medical marijuana when it’s been here all the time it has been here all along what has been Marin all Marinol River is a pharmaceutical pill that is Delta 9 THC and it will get you high the chief is absolutely wrong about that and what was the reason that one would want to use Marinol because it he’s worried that

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getting you high as a problem did he mention how that better that’s right that’s right there’s a lot of hip-hop’s you around this era now I don’t think that Merrill you know I think marijuana is a fairly risky drug I’ve known people to get hooked on it and and slowed their lives down substantially but but when I think of if they had been on alcohol instead they’d be even much worse off so you have to consider that – but it is interesting of that things I mean I was very uncomfortable when I saw the letter

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only when I first read it I thought I wonder if I want to make comment about this and then I was out there and it came to me where people were uncomfortable that the chief did that maybe we’ll get him here on the show maybe we’ll have him on if he’d like he’s welcome I hope that if you’re watching or listening chief you’ll consider coming on the show medical marijuana alcohol any other occupant sure I know that always for the years as I remember you now you really health has been your main area

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because you somehow felt that unsubstantiated healing has so many different I want to say faces Iran Maui and you live through any other areas I mean occupier I like I said specifically I am open to understanding that many people go to occupy cure and don’t really have any clear idea of what it kind of result they’re gonna get you know I know people that have used you know a lot of people say well it’s okay for pain but not for this other stuff what kinds of rules any other no I gave

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you that example right off the bat about the young man in his thirties who claimed that he had been cured of heart disease and acupuncture’s told him he didn’t have to take his heart medicine anymore whatever oh I didn’t tell you that okay well this was o twelve thirteen years ago I had a reputation like I still have of being skeptical of so-called alternative medicine and so people always wanted now he’s full of people who believe all this stuff this one guy neighbor he was always coming

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over and picking arguments with me and he said okay I have absolute proof I have a congenital heart disease I was on a heart medication almost all my life the cardiologist told me if I stopped taking this I would die but I’ve been seen in acupuncture for a couple months and he’s been treating me with acupuncture and herbs and he recently said that I’m now cured and I don’t have to take that medicine anymore so you see you were wrong you were absolutely wrong drop that the act the acupuncture saved

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my life two weeks later I read in a newspaper death notice he had been fine he was only in his mid-30s he had been found in his apartment dead of a well and wait wait let me finish the story let me finish the story I was pretty upset about it I called the coroner’s office I talked to the pathologist who did the autopsy and he was mad as hell he said that acupuncture has killed the sky by telling him you know acupuncturists are not qualified doctors they shouldn’t become legal to go on or

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off of medications absolutely and and then he proceeded to tell me of another incident of another young man in his mid-30s who was perfectly healthy except he got bad infection a staph infection and as he got worse and worse he thought about going to doctor maybe get antibiotics but somebody talked him into going to an acupuncturist because I can heal everything hey it’s ancient Chinese medicine the Chinese are never wrong I don’t know where we got this idea that again I don’t know where you heard that

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one and you know it it’s every do everything every oh look at the ads for acupuncture they will have point to every bottle system every every kind of disorder they will claim that they can help with I mean I was in this guy– believe as an occupant Kris recommend to someone to go off of medication that to me is a step over a line that’s when we talk about the testing I can’t imagine someone would buy something hook line and sinker that they’ve been on for years and years I’ve seen it happen in

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the opioids where 15 years ago someone has subscribed something that now is considered a deadly monster and the doctors stopped giving them their medication and they are in constant pain and the doctors are so afraid of the laws rewritten to clamp down so I think it goes both ways I plan I don’t think that has anything to do with what I’m talking about this acupuncturist that this pathologist who did these autopsies told me about another case where a man he was perfectly healthy except for

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staph infection he goes in acupuncturist he developed sepsis and he dies a horrible death of sepsis which is internal infection through the blood and then he told me of another woman who was in her fifties she went to an acupuncturist for breast cancer treatment and you see there’s nothing to stop these acupuncture’s for from saying that they can help with these things even though there’s not a scrap of evidence that they can help with these things well but in no way do i refute what you

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just said I don’t think it’s the role of an acupuncturist until someone to stop their medication blindly I think that’s absolutely a mistake if someone were to monitor their significant things in some measurable way and make their personal decision they want and anything we’ve ever heard don’t they always tell you to go off slowly because you know you can have horrible effects on the body so I agree with what you said but I also know that I’ve seen people have benefits and

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I don’t really want you don’t really you’re not qualified to tell what is a benefit you know the human I’m just saying the human body is very colorful I say that an acupuncturist should not tell somebody to go off their medication with absolutely that there’s nothing I’ve seen benefits whether measured or not I’ve seen benefits and so I can’t throw a you know a fire on all occupiers and I also know that many people that are studying architecture did it as an alternative because they didn’t like

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what they saw in Western medicine so no it’s because they couldn’t get into medical school or they couldn’t afford to go to medical school I know they want to play with people’s lives and if they can’t do it properly by going to medical school they’re gonna do it by going to some quack school learning some bogus medical profession with an alternative and anime that makes no sense has never been proven and it’s all because they’re powerful lobbyists they they get these

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little organizations going and they go to the legislators and they give them money for their political campaigns and they get their you know we’re gonna have about ten I wonder alternative you know different medical systems that don’t even over a lot like Ayurveda is one they could be licensed soon well again what all you’re saying to me is that you are of science-based guy and the things that people claim need to be substantiated and it comes out like a pimple comes out in many ways in our

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system and it’s driven by greed and it pervades the media it pervades the way people treat each other and claims and people believe people that have no right to make a claim and lead people on their health yeah it’s about consumer protection and health care we have consumer protection in every kind of field you know you can’t sell gasoline or a car that that you know with ads that make totally false claims you know 100 miles a gallon when only gets ten five you can’t do that but in health

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care you can make all kinds of claims that these supplements will do this and that that they want anymore there’s years ago we saw as a years ago when we were younger you and I saw things were much more bold there were times when health claims were clamped down on a lot no they weren’t they weren’t that the before occupy sure was given the Congress tried to clamp down on supplement claims and what happened was all the health fraud stories just absolutely drown Washington and a blizzard of petition saying don’t take

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away our vitamins the on all the so-called health who serves in this island they were Flyers saying write your Congressman tell them don’t make vitamins illegal no one was ever gonna make vitamins illegal no one is ever gonna get thrown in jail I mean this is just insanity what they were trying to do was stop these manufacturers from claiming that their little combination of vitamins and herbs was going to cure cancer or was going to cure anything and so they got the ball rolling on legislation but it got totally drowned

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and to where the Congress passed the dietary supplement health and education act of I believe 1994 which absolutely made the FDA had to be hands-off on vitamins and herbs and anything called a supplement okay but isn’t it so that in the last numbers of years we’ve seen a drive toward labeling we might pick GMO as a written for labeling yeah you know what the end of the supplement industry actually fought against a law that would require that they actually have in the bottle what it says on the label and in

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the same amounts a lot of these so-called supplements you buy do not have the amount of vitamins sometimes they don’t even have the herb at all they have another herb in it there’s just no control of this because the industry wanted no control and it’s a very powerful hundred billion dollar a year industry that gives money to politicians both lawfully and under the table so when I hear that I keep thinking it sounds like a conspiracy that you say now is kind of pervasive into our society where people are

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protective of alternative medicines to a fault I can appreciate that I also though wonder you’re open to conversation about this what is your you know I would like to say well you what is your why obviously my on your hands you do walking and yeah what was it you what motivates you and keeps motivating you have you been doing this a while I think it’s because it’s analogous to if I saw a burglar breaking into somebody’s house and nobody else saw it I was the only person who saw it I would feel obligated to

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call 9-1-1 all right now it’s more complicated with this because most people have been indoctrinated by the media to believe in this stuff and so on we though very largely blindly if you read my book line for fun and profit my free ebook available is smashwords calm you will see this is absolute documentation these aren’t just impressions and vague ideas the I give absolutely specific examples for example I CBS call me once – they wanted to interview me on 48 hours because they had seen the title of a book I wrote on

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alternative medicine they misunderstood they thought I was a pro alternative medicine guy they wanted me to come on they were doing an hour show a one-hour show an alternative medicine a special and they wanted me to be one of the people who was going to get in there and hype alternative medicine and as we were preparing for the show week ahead of time the producer asked me okay can you just give me a preview like a couple stories of people who have been miraculously cured by alternative medicine he actually asked you that yeah

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she did and and I and I said no but I can give you plenty of examples of people who have been harmed and killed by alternative medicine and there was a long silence she realized that that she had that’s right and yes and she says I’ll tell you what I’m gonna get back to you in a couple days and she never got back to me I was not on the show the show turned out to be exactly what I thought it would be are practically a paid commercial for every kind of crackpot healing system you can imagine and

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that’s how the media deal with these things I only because I never thought of myself as media but people say think of me as media they pigeonholed me here yeah I leave room for people like me yeah no no when I say when I say made media I mean the mainstream mass media and now most of this was before the Internet the Internet has changed things a bit there are a lot more opinions but there’s also a lot more quackery the Internet is practically you know but I’ve heard that the Internet overall is

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paid for by porn that the porn is the biggest income driver biggest revenue driver well that may or may not be true but I know it’s true that the mainstream media and a good part of the Internet are driven by health fraud by fraudulent alternative medicine the revenues from all those health scams well you know I have no way to to refute or it wouldn’t want to I think that anything that anyone does they should look before they leap and we can’t deny that the media does things for sensationalism and

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ratings and many times they wanted the liver to an audience what the audience is expecting they don’t like yourself you’re an outside-the-box guy you’re not buying it hook line and sinker but I’m putting words in your mouth but you are open to hearing and seeing proof so if our audience cares to come forward whether to support what you say or deny what you say you’re open to hearing and seeing right absolutely okay now I let me let me give you an example of of an article that has stayed in my mind

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nearly 30 years and this was an article in the Star Advertiser back in the 1980s and I think that was about when naturopaths were getting starting to get licensed and legalized here in Hawaii and there was a big full page article promoting the wonders of nature Appa the– and they quoted all these different naturopath saying and this was about the time the AIDS epidemic was taking off and and these natural paths were vigorously denouncing the drugs the doctors were giving AIDS patients they see these drugs will kill people you can

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cure aids with acupuncture and diet and chiropractic and all this kind of stuff and herbs I mean you Bailey and so this is what they were saying this is what natural pests were saying in the 1980s and to a man and woman they denounced the antiretroviral drugs that were just starting to be used back then now let’s look at the situation now Magic Johnson is still alive what almost twenty years after his diagnosis and millions of people he is no exception millions of people have been saved by these antiretroviral drugs including

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millions of people in Africa the people who believe the natural paths are dead I only have one thing to say we only have a couple of minutes left and your subjects demand more scrutiny and I again if there was a naturopathic group that referenced that I’ve seen people that was studying in medical school and ended up becoming naturopath rather than doctors but I I so I know it’s probably different on their motivations but I don’t like the wholesale knockout whole industry because of problems but I

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do recognize and I recognize in you you’re a valiant crusader for truth and well thank you thank you I would like to think that you’d come back on our show maybe talk to the others that are here Sharon want to show other things or even talk on the phone Kirk Butler is available to everyone at the places that we you can look at our website and see though the show again at Maui neutral zone comm it’s been a pleasure having Kirk Butler here on our show today I hope that everyone is listening and we’ll come back every

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Monday at 11:00 and actually watch listen to kak you all the time we got some terrific programming and week we’re gonna have some different people and different subjects we hope that when you come back here you’ll then go to our website and pick up some of the shows like this one and others that are come and gone but we’ll be here for the future thank you for joining us Kirk thank you for being angry Jason I’ve had enough fun doing this I am gonna let you guys go and thank you for

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being here at the neutral zone see you next week believes you are