RON FOGEL; Navigates the difficult water of getting social help!

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Jason with RON FOGEL.  Fogel is a private citizen who has “been through the mill”. He has had periods of challenge and has navigated the systems here in Hawaii and has advice for people who have challenges. He is helping people navigate the waters ALL THE TIME. People who face challenges have a helping hand from Ron. 7-2-2018

Summary & Transcript Below

[00:01 → 02:12]
Introduction and Show Purpose
Jason Schwartz, host of The Neutral Zone on KAKU 88.5, opens the show emphasizing its mission: to foster respectful, informed discussions on various topics, particularly political and social issues, without the divisiveness common on social media. The program brings on diverse guests to shed light on important community matters.

•     [02:12 → 04:55]
  Guest Introduction and Context: Ron Fogel on Housing, Homelessness, and Mental Health
  Ron Fogel, a long-time Maui resident and now retired, joins to discuss interrelated issues of housing, homelessness, and mental health. He shares his lived experience navigating social assistance systems and witnessing firsthand the struggles many face. Key points include:
• The high cost of living on Maui with a “living wage” estimated at $31.65/hour, which few earn.
• Many people juggle multiple jobs and still face homelessness if they encounter health or financial setbacks.
• Public perception often assumes that housing and social services are adequate, but Ron counters this, citing frequent roadblocks and insufficient resources.
• [04:55 → 07:39]
  Housing Vouchers and Market Realities
  Ron explains the dissonance between housing assistance programs (especially HUD vouchers) and the local rental market:
• HUD vouchers are capped at amounts (e.g., $1,350/month) far below actual rents (sometimes $2,200+ for modest units).
• Although vouchers exist and are distributed (e.g., 500 recently), recipients face long waits (3-5 years) and difficulty finding landlords willing to accept them.
• Landlords often avoid tenants with HUD vouchers due to concerns about mental health, addiction, or other challenges.
• Maui is “drastically under-housed,” with a severe shortage of affordable units, limiting the effectiveness of existing subsidies.
• [07:39 → 11:11]
  Additional Housing Programs and Persistent Shortages
• Steadfast Housing Program: A pre-HUD subsidy program for people homeless for over two years with mental or physical disabilities, including recovery from substance abuse. Despite funding, it cannot place people due to lack of available housing.
• Senior Subsidized Housing (Holly Mahalo): Multiple campuses exist but with waits of three to five years. Qualification often requires minimal assets, leading some to transfer assets to family to qualify.
• The cumulative effect: multiple waiting lists with no immediate housing solutions, leaving many homeless despite qualifying for assistance.
• [11:11 → 14:53]
  Real-Life Homelessness and Mental Health Supports
• Ron relates the story of a family living in a van near the beach, both parents working but unable to afford housing despite qualifying for assistance.
• Mental health services in Maui are described as strong in providing counseling, medication continuity, and addiction treatment, but they do not provide housing.
• Mental health services help with managing stress and symptoms but are not a solution to homelessness itself.
• On smaller islands like Molokai and Lanai, services are even more limited, often forcing people to feign situations (e.g., pretending to be battered) to access shelter.
• [14:53 → 17:21]
  Addiction, Mental Illness, and Homelessness Intersections
• Approximately 80% of homeless individuals have histories of addiction, mental health issues, or both.
• Drugs are often used for self-medication. Patterns of jail cycling and ineffective treatment are common.
• The epidemic of methamphetamine (“ice”) addiction is especially severe, with multi-generational impacts on families.
• Ron calls it “devil dust,” describing rapid and devastating effects on individuals and communities.
• [17:21 → 21:46]
  Crisis Intervention and Community Policing
• Maui Police Department has implemented Crisis Intervention Training (CIT) mandated for all officers, designed to improve understanding and handling of mentally ill and addicted individuals.
• The training, supported by Mental Health America, helps officers see the human side of those they encounter repeatedly.
• Despite training, police have limited resources to place individuals safely; jails are overcrowded, and there are few safe overnight options.
• The visible homeless population, especially in areas like Kalama Park and Kihei, is significant and often undercounted in official statistics.
• Health issues among the homeless are rampant, including infections like MRSA.
• [21:46 → 27:07]
  Community Efforts and Personal Stories
• Ron shares his experience helping an elderly homeless man with dementia, reflecting the importance of individual advocacy.
• The Salvation Army offers case management even for homeless individuals without permanent addresses, assisting them with obtaining vital documents such as birth certificates—critical for accessing benefits.
• Many homeless people face stigma and social isolation, worsening mental health.
• The “trash bag guy,” a well-known mentally ill individual in Kihei, represents a complex case of someone who qualifies for benefits but is unwilling or unable to engage fully with services.
• [27:07 → 34:05]
  Healthcare Changes and Emergency Care Gaps
• The loss of Maui Memorial Hospital’s sensitivity towards homeless populations has led to gaps under new providers like Kaiser.
• Emergency rooms provide short-term stabilization (e.g., 10-day crisis stays), medication management, and connections to food stamps and therapy, but discharge often returns people to homelessness.
• There is a lack of coordinated community “scoop up” programs to proactively assist vulnerable homeless individuals.
• Barriers include fears from the public and agencies about theft, violence, or liability, preventing more aggressive outreach.
• [34:05 → 44:54]
  
• 
• Food Insecurity and Resource Distribution
• Despite appearances, food resources are inconsistent and often inaccessible for homeless individuals.
• Significant food waste is noted, e.g., perfectly good cheese discarded daily due to refrigeration failures or policies, with store managers refusing donations to homeless outreach.
• Food stamps cannot be used to buy prepared hot food on Maui, unlike some other states, limiting options for homeless people.
• Community members increasingly provide informal support, such as potluck meals in parks, but such efforts are irregular and insufficient to meet demand.
• [44:54 → 49:21]
  Social Worker Burnout and Systemic Limitations
• Social workers are described as caring and dedicated but overwhelmed due to high caseloads and insufficient resources.
• Lack of housing is emphasized as the primary barrier to recovery—without stable shelter, other interventions are less effective.
• The cycle of homelessness and addiction is self-reinforcing, and families are often caught in multi-generational struggle.
• Ron stresses the importance of compassion and consistent, person-to-person support as a critical part of any solution.
• [49:21 → 55:59]
  
• 
• Call to Action and Personal Responsibility
• Ron appeals to the community—especially middle and upper-middle-class residents—to take personal action by helping at least one homeless person.
• He advocates for “micro-programs” where a single house is rented out to multiple people with onsite support, modeled after successful programs elsewhere.
• He critiques the local housing market for being driven by absentee landlords and investors who prioritize high rents over community needs.
• The interview underscores that government and agencies alone cannot solve the crisis; individual involvement and compassion are indispensable.
• [55:59 → 57:00]
  Closing Summary
  Jason Schwartz thanks Ron Fogel for his insights and dedication. The show concludes with the hope that listeners will be motivated to engage with and contribute to addressing homelessness, mental health, and housing shortages on Maui.

1. 1. 1. Key Insights and Conclusions

Timeline Table of Key Programs and Issues

1. 1. 1. Summary

This interview with Ron Fogel on The Neutral Zone candidly exposes the complexity and urgency of homelessness, housing shortages, and mental health challenges on Maui. Despite the existence of multiple programs—HUD vouchers, steadfast housing subsidies, senior housing, and crisis intervention services—the fundamental problem remains the chronic lack of affordable housing stock. People, including working families, are homeless or living in unsafe conditions due to prohibitive rents and long waiting lists.

Mental health and addiction services are robust in counseling and medication but provide no direct housing solutions, which are essential for recovery. The police and emergency medical systems are strained, with training and crisis programs offering some relief but no systemic fix.

Food insecurity persists alongside waste due to systemic inefficiencies. Social workers are dedicated but overwhelmed, and stigma and fear further complicate outreach. Ron’s central message is a call for community involvement: individual acts of compassion, small-scale housing solutions, and shared responsibility can begin to bridge the gap where government and agencies fall short.

The discussion highlights the interlinked nature of these issues and the need for innovative, flexible, and humane approaches to address them effectively.

Transcript

00:01

[Music] No [Music] watch his hand [Music] [Applause] please [Music] good morning we are here on the neutral zone I’m your host Jason Schwartz the neutral zone here on kaku 88.5 was created so we could talk about all kinds of subjects and the goal is to put in the clutch so that when we talk about a subject we don’t cut each other up like you see so often on Facebook and most social media and we can talk to all kinds of people all kinds of candidates about all kinds of subjects and that’s

01:37

what we do and if you’ve been watching our show you know with that we’re looking at issues now in this political year and we’ve had different guests on last week we had fire chief jeff murray i want to thank the maui news for putting him on the front of the sunday paper he’s a wonderful guy and we in maui county oh lucky to have had a fire chief like jeff murray well today i have a special guest his name is ron Fogel will introduce him in a minute and the reason that we are here is because we’re

02:12

gonna talk about housing homelessness mental health I think they all sort of tied together but let’s get into it good morning Ron how are you I’m fine thank you for having me on the show I really uh so honored and appreciative that I get that opportunity to speak to you and you you’re thousands hundreds of jobs oh so I’m here and hopefully it’ll go well yeah well let me share with our audience why I brought you here Iran you are now I guess technically called retired yep that’s so but you have lived

02:54

on Maui a number of years yep I first came here in 66 and I’ve spent 28 years total and you know living on now i leaving maui living on Maui leaving Maui okay and so here you are now your yep and you’ve been in the system you’ve had periods where you’ve been in need of social assistance and have gone through and two things about being homeless things looking for housing trying to get mental health things trying to tie it all together and sadly more and more people that I know are going through any

03:42

and all of the above people are having a lot of mental stress from trying to work two and three jobs I found that interesting that at the Small Business Development Center they let me know a statistic I thought was quite meaningful thirty one dollars and sixty-five cents an hour is what they think is a living wage to be able to live okay on Maui I don’t think I know very many people that make thirty one dollars and sixty-five cents an hour so that sets up a condition where people are getting all

04:16

kinds of assistance services or working one and two jobs and god forbid they get a health challenge and they lose a job and they could be homeless any of us could be homeless in just a blink and any of us can be houseless in just a bank ruling and so that’s why I brought you on because you’ve had a lot of experience with a lot of these agencies and you’ve also seen a lot of people that don’t have challenges think that the services that we have are plentiful and adequate but I haven’t found that to

04:55

be true I have tried to help people and direct them to things and they run into all kinds of roadblocks yep well I’m going to respond a little bit early still you know we’re woefully lacking resources I mean we have great programs and great and agencies and and very good people working to handle all those problems here you’re alcoholics organics for homeless your battered women get a set close you know over and over and over again that’s good and but what happens is we just we we

05:34

don’t you know like take HUD housing Urban Development they have programs for for virtually you know child child people programs they have programs for the homeless a for the psychologically impaired and and that there’s money there however what they don’t have is the housing stock to to carry through I mean we hearing that mayor of Maui future mayor and council I think we all know this we are drastically under housed here we need many many many many many thousands of affordable homes not

06:18

not just that I mean they they they could do simple switches like you know letting HUD invest in sober houses are letting are being more flexible with whether we do with these dollars that we have if you have a HUD vessel right now it’s out your HUD vouchers vouchers when you admit you look through your records and looked at all your numbers and they say hey you qualify for some help and you’ve been waiting three or four or five years until your numbers actually comes up three four or five years years

06:55

that’s them and and is that because there is no housing well it’s not just that there’s no housing is that that HUD has has these they these demographics of how much they can are willing to pay that aren’t in any way compliant to what the market is another like I live in a hood voucher that pays through thirteen hundred fifty dollars a month that’s what HUD pace okay and all around me the the unit that I live in would could go for as much as twenty two hundred dollars and and and as and and as little as as

07:39

$1,350 20200 live in a palace no I live in a Hana the one-bedroom Ohana detached Ohana 2200 where is it in Kiara well you know I mean we was mid TA right just yep and the place was built in 74 so it’s not new it doesn’t have no it’s not but it’s you know it suits my needs sure but you know HUD has had a couple years ago just gave everybody its gave out like five hundred vouchers for people that have been on the waiting list right and um you know once you get this dispatcher what happens is you have a specified

08:26

period of time in which to find a place to live well the hugs off on their numbers by as much as 25% in terms of what’s what’s available in the market and then there’s the other downside for for the the owners is that you know why would I take money from somebody that’s coming through a social agency that I don’t know what their background is they may be mentally ill or or Abin attics or have challenges when I can you know when I could pick you know for every every opening there is there’s hundreds people

09:08

and you know and and and you know a lot of of the people looking for subsidized housing are old and sick are young and sick are middle-aged and mentally ill and and we just don’t have the accommodations to do so okay so that’s just one important but one piece that housing there’s plenty of vouchers the vouchers get issued the the amount of rents charged from what I’m understanding are generally over what those HUD vouchers are also a HUD a candidate isn’t as attractive because

09:50

of their background and their issues that they may have and there are people that desperately also want housing there aren’t on hunt so it becomes very hard so what do people do when they don’t have a voucher and they have no money well there’s there’s there’s other programs and one I’d like to mention which is an excellent program it’s called steadfast and what steadfast housing and it is what they call a pre HUD program which means that you you they subsidize you while you’re waiting

10:24

for your number to come up and what this specific program is for people that have been homeless for a period of two years have mental health or physical health disabilities and and they also allow for recovering people from alcohol and drug abuse so let me just Sud fast so again and they’re paying money just like HUD but they’re also dealing with the same lack of housing invit steadfast has it is unable to place anybody anywhere so here we go we got HUD and that’s not helpful steadfast housing and that’s not helpful

11:11

now no it’s very helpful but if you get a place and they help you get a place I’m trying to I’m what do we call drilling down okay see you went through HUD and then said thank but you got four years to wait and you can’t find any place anyway then you go to HUD steadfast and they set it up and if they had a place they would get you in a place and but what you do well no there’s no steadfast housing well now there’s there’s all the housing units that are you know for stay

11:43

elderly and the subsidized housing county so I’ll run jump you over here so here you’re elderly and so you apply to Holly Mahalo and they’ve got gosh ten or twelve campuses of a hundred to 180 kind of a thing each yep but that has a three four five year waiting list so that’s not a housing program that’s a waiting list so far I’ve heard about three waiting lists that you qualify for now what do you do all your homeless okay so now what either say you’re homeless so where do you go how do you

12:19

deal with each night safely well I you know I live I live in key a literally a block and a half from from the beach and and you know it’s that the part they’re like Kalama part example but I mean that there’s a a tribe of people that live there and some for years and these aren’t the jump bums and drug addicts or you know mutton I know a family that has lived there for at least four years that both the husband and wife work and I’ll have they have three kids and they literally they live out of a van in the

13:07

park and take their kids to school and they go to work and they come back and finding a place that they can live and and that’s within their means is just I mean you look at a three bedroom rental I’d they’re that well they’re on all the lists that that they qualify for but again they actually got a HUD vouchers last year and couldn’t find a home to live in so now that we know I’m gonna run it down I’m gonna I’m almost jumping we know this steadfast that’s great

13:46

nothing available no room at the end sounds like Jesus and then HUD they had nothing and now you went to the senior thing and you didn’t qualify for some reason and there are lots of reason you wouldn’t qualify but I mean you have to have virtually no assets to be able to qualify that’s true yeah and once you get in there I mean I know people that have moved their assets to their kids and their grandkids so they can move into housing because they can’t find housing it’s craziness so I’m now

14:16

gonna just jump here because now you’ve taken people down the scale couldn’t find housing you went through all the programs you qualify for you’re still waiting these are two people working do they have any kind of mental health help out there I thank God for it I mean we have a great mental health system here I mean we we have a broad array of I mean if you can think of a mental health issue I got one I’m homeless now you go into mental health because you you don’t know what to do

14:53

you’ve got three kids and you’re living in a park and a van and you’re working and your husband’s working and it’s starting to drive you crazy and you don’t know what to do so mental health what do they do for you know not gonna do that their focus is not on that they’re not you’re not gonna get a house from there no but what you what you what you can get is is the continuity of care of medications and there’s an array of programs I mean they’ve got the couple counseling

15:23

they’ve got children counseling they have they have all a whole bunch of programs that help people with they’re dealing with the stress of being homeless and are but they’re very good at mental health issues medication issues addiction issues it’s it’s hard not to find help with if you’re mentally ill or if you’re addicted what if you’re on Molokai or lanai um I actually the the same programs apply there I happen to know that’s not the case there’s very there is a there’s very few people

16:05

because again budgets and money there’s very few people and very few services like for example I imagine that on Molokai have spoken to people on Molokai there is really no solution if you’re battered if you’re not battered can you imagine you’re not battered and you have to figure out how you’re gonna get into a homeless shelter you make believe your batter because you’re on the street and the dirt or here in Kihei now many people I imagine that are in Kihei that are homeless have drug and alcohol

16:40

problems I never know whether it’s a chicken or an egg which is first the drug and alcohol problem or being homeless and the stress of it all what do you well for me for me it really doesn’t matter what we do know is that you know 80% of the people they come in with under homeless are battered or addicted have mental health issues and and they’re using the drugs as a form of self-medication and you know and they start out smoking pot mmm and their friends say well I want to try this and

17:21

and eventually some percentage of people that do that and addictive and have the addictive lifestyle of the repetition of in jail out of jail cure here cures they’re in jail out of jail and never get to the underlying psychological problems so there’s but the assets are there and they’re available a sense of what are the assets to help people that have mental health problems that are also well there’s a loja house which was a few days I mean I’m listening to you but I know these programs are overtaxed

18:02

you know when they say look I remember bringing a lady to the emergency room because they said that’s where we’re gonna get her help and they’re an emergency room they took her to my house they gave her ten days off the street well actually they found an emergency room they would have taken there’s a crisis program some days well they threw it back on the street that that’s but that programs set up specifically once you get into that that during that ten days that they’re there

18:35

what they do is they get them medicated properly because I’m a long a period of withdrawal from whatever drugs they may or may not be taking and that ten days gives gives everybody an opportunity for them to get signed up for getting food stamps for getting quest quest is getting getting into the continuity of weekly therapy monthly oversight what you know the what programs are available for that if you absolutely get lucky enough to that have a house or get a house you can get you know subsidized

19:14

it sounds like Vegas lucky enough to get a place so we basically and this is Jason’s conclusion this is what you call an emergency this is I don’t know why our mayor and council excuse my French oh you’ll have to say balls on radio I’ve had the balls to declare it an emergency and create an emergency solution why don’t I see that if someone knows the call in here eight seven three three four three five my answer that I’m in a is twofold one is money and the other is not in my

19:58

backyard long many other communities across the nation have come up and and and with with programs of what I call micro programs is that you you you take a house a three-bedroom house in a bit in a neighborhood and you break it up into having numbers no you have you have six people that live there and they have and they had and and then there’s like a resident manager and what happens is is is now you’ve solved the problem for six people and it’s and it’s all in one one spot and

20:37

you have three different agencies that are paying for all that you you you have a hug but here we got a different situation we don’t even have a house there is no house to be able to have six people and a resident manager as much money as you have you have nowhere so I can go into Lowe’s and for two hundred and eighty dollars buy a ten foot by twenty foot tent and in less than two hours with a couple of people he wrecked the tent I can get cots I can create a cooking facility and carry eight showers

21:11

we do this for Refugees what about people that are here yeah why is this not happening okay come on let me know that this is the greatest shot going on we often if people that have point to all these agencies you spoke of they can say the words HUD and steadfast and all these things but we’re in an emergency if you drive down out of a maha street you see Safeway shopping carts you wonder i wonder if there any shopping carts left at Safeway seems like they’re filled with plastic bags and sleeping

21:46

gear for homeless people and then in Kihei in the woods and there’s nowhere safe and if you’re a woman you hear stories of rape and battery and all kinds of stuff it’s like one attacking the other maybe you don’t have those answers but i’m really just you can tell not really upset at what I see in knowing that people aren’t helping they’re pointing to solutions I you know I’ve shared that sense of frustration that you do and I want to make an appeal because you know the people listening to

22:22

this show for the most part you and I are properly speaking to the choir you know the demographics of the people that watch this kind of show or listen to this this this kind of radio are people that for the most part probably middle to upper-middle class and have the time to listen to the talks all right so what I want to make it a meal too is all you yet all you rich yuppies out there or poor yuppies are poor yuppies is you know let’s get together and do one thing just just one thing I have taken one house right

23:03

somebody that’s got the money to youngevity to rent a house or release a house and let’s start simple and small one house with six people in it be they battered women be they drug addicts be today elderly be them so you’re saying asking the people that have resources to step up step up and not continue to try to get the income they have from these houses which they can fill with people at the top rate and the more they do the more they justify so they can buy another one and fill it with people at

23:40

the top rate so you’re saying get off their income from there people have moved to Maui and buy places and live off the income they make off these absorbent rentals and they justify their their high rentals by how much they paid for these houses I read something recently the 20% of the houses over a million dollars were people that didn’t live here the places are Bank that Bank for all intents and purposes I think your bankers are a little off because it’s more like the opposite I’m looking

24:15

at the clocks here not sure where the mark for the commercials are so I’m gonna put a segment on run and then I’ll come right back hang on welcome to the neutral zone smart minute did you know that there was a bio initiative in 2012 which is a comprehensive report on the biological effects of electromagnetic fields EMF and radio microwave frequency radiation such as that emitted from smart meters the extensive fourteen hundred and eighty page report has thorough evidence against smart meters and other wireless

24:57

technologies it was compiled by 29 authors from 10 countries including 10 doctors 21 PhDs the report shows that biological effects occur with very low exposure levels to EMF and radio frequencies thank you for listening to the neutral zone smart minute well that was a nice smart minute I am looking for our attack to be able to see we’re in the hour we are because we have a segment with a commercial break and the clock seems to be a little off by my count so I’m going to talk until they come in and grab me and shake me oh

25:44

there’s something that I want another one that one of the things that I wanted to get out there there’s probably not many people know about is our local police department has a program which they call the the crisis intervention training and what it is is that this is a training that they go through it’s three hours and everybody eventually and the whole police force has to go through this because the the it’s been mandated that that it was a desirable program and this is a program which sensitizes the

26:23

police officers i-i-i don’t like the board police officers III prefer the term peace offers officers and this program is that I want to repeat it again it’s the crisis intervention training it it it’s a program that sets up with at least no not to know how to deal with the mentally ill and are the mentally impaired and on each shift there is we’ve trained it about a hundred and eighty of police officers going back and over the last two or three years and and it was set up by Mental Health America

27:07

and what the officers learned to do is deal with these people that are mentally ill and and know what they’re looking at that that they get enough insight of how to deal with the people that are more often than not on the street and drug drug dependent so that resources is there and those who are seeking out help one of the last things you want to do is call police because you’re you’re afraid that they’ll be adverse right so when you’re on the street you often are afraid of the police because you’re

27:53

concerned that they’re gonna do something to you instead of help you and not understand what’s going on and somehow switch things around and I’ve seen that happen yep it’s nice to know that the officers are going through crisis intervention and there’s a lot of how do you know about that um I had a friend that used to run Mental Health America name of Robert college yeah Robert Conway you helped a lot of people know he did a great job I’m really sad to see him go and he invited me to go do

28:29

this with him and what happened is we ended up gathering what we do is we grab it and gather up a group of people that were in recovery there are recovery don’t head backgrounds and and we would have a battered woman and we have a schizophrenic and we would have and we’d have an array of people that were stabilized and we take them put them in front of the officers and have the question and answer and it was Evan it was always well received and and I have seen the effects of it you know I live virtually

29:06

across from Kalama Park and it works and for those you know I know there’s families out there that they just don’t know what else to do and at some point they say they feel like they have to call the police when you call the police on asks that there’d be a crisis intervention training guy and they’re there in their leadership crisis intervention we’re gonna take a break hey it’s Shaggy critical thing for the problem solver guy just left abnormal insane but always centered in common

29:45

sense and with a brand new show time and catch me Monday through Thursday at 10 a.m. and then for the replay 7 p.m. immediately after democracy now for news headlines and a bit of common sense mister shaggy Jenkins showed Monday through Thursday at 10 a.m. on kak you hi i’m shaggy jenkins program director for kak u FM the voice of maui we are a listener-supported station and as such we depend on your donations and the support of local businesses to keep our broadcasts going if you would like to

30:26

help kak you 88.5 please go to our website at kak u FM dot org slash give to make a donation today thanks for your support with the fourth of July just around the corner we know that fireworks can frighten pets and some may run off that’s why that Maui Humane Society is offering 50% off pet microchipping June 25th through July 3rd to learn more call 877 three six eight zero extension three or stop by the shelter anytime Monday through Saturday between 11 a.m. and 6 p.m. no appointment necessary

31:04

[Music] I’m a 40 year old man that walked in there to get his high school diploma very hard for me but miss Araceli she gave me correction at age 47 Marco finished his high school diploma 50 percent of getting your high school diploma is walking through those doors the other 50 percent is doing the work no one gets a diploma alone if you’re thinking of finishing your high school diploma you have help find free adult education classes near you I finish our diploma org that’s finish or diploma or brought

31:34

to you by the Dollar General Literacy Foundation and the Ad Council I’m David Pakman host of the David Pakman show heard Monday through Friday on Kak you 88.5 FM our new time 4 o’clock analysis commentary interviews and more from a perspective not offered on corporate media not only news from the front lines of progressive issues but facts that are factual and information that is actually informing the David Pakman show heard now at 4 p.m. on Kak you the voice of Maui Hawaii youth service directory is online

32:10

at a youth calm we envision Hawaii where all youth are connected to the support they need to walk upon a path towards health happiness and abundance 808 youth comm is a free easy-to-use online directory funded by the Office of youth services if you’re looking for a family-friendly event check out our events calendar and connect with us on social media find us on Facebook Instagram and Twitter okay we’re back here on the neutral zone with Ron Fogel I’m Jason Schwartz while we were gone I was asking

32:47

Rhonda for covering the subjects we had broken out and went to commercial break we were talking about crisis intervention training that the police get at the encouragement of Mental Health America so that they understand better more what’s going on in the street and how to deal with things is that right that’s right and and it’s and it’s sensitizes of them I mean you know the peace officers are out there every day they know all these people they’ve they’ve arrested them over and over and

33:22

over again they’ve intervened and on their behalf and you know imagine doing that job that every day you see the same people over and over and over again harming themselves and they sort of get blunted well now with the training it it’s they get it they get an opportunity just to intimately see what on the other side of these people’s mental mental health and and and addiction it is so basically they’re more sense in their hand and and but yet they don’t have resources available to them

34:05

well what do they have well just not a lot not a lot I mean that there’s a there’s a you know the jails are fill yeah I mean at this at this point that the police have no no place to put anybody and if you wanted to be a safe at night do they have a safe place my people can sleep even if it’s I mean we have no I mean sure we’ve got you know we got the resource centers or resource centers or guarantee a you’re not really with a lot of money there I don’t want to say dozens but seems like easily dozens of

34:45

people oh there’s dozens just in Kalama I mean if you start at la puros and go to the canoe at the end of of Kihei Road I you know there’s hundreds of people that live in various parts why would I hear the numbers that they announce the official number of homeless people I am always thinking that they are under reporting well I mean it’s a large degree that that’s that’s true because of you can’t get to a lot of these people then you know they’re living you know and in the woods and the weeds and

35:30

on the beach and in the parks and they have health challenges that are way more than regular people you get a scratch and you have nowhere to go you can get all kinds of things Mercer instead I mean Mercer and staff is rampant amongst the homeless I remember when I first kind of met you about this you are helping someone a guy that was in his 70s and he was literally going down the beach and going from one place to the next place and living on nothing and he had a little bit of benefit not very much but he was starting to get

36:12

dementia and he wasn’t able to really handle things himself and you came in and you were really amazing you were a champion and that’s what I saw so someone who cared who wasn’t even in a role to do it but you stepped up that’s what I hope everyone here is that it well I thank you very much I thank you you know we can we can tackle these problems one one that one at a time if if if everybody out there that took just took one person and said okay I’m gonna help this person and you don’t have to

36:57

help them economically necessarily if you have the means go ahead but there’s a lot of these people it everything starts with a birth certificate you get no benefits until you get a birth certificate if you’re from New York and was born in New York it takes six months to get a birth certificate because the background tracks subsequently there’s six months and and various states have various but it starts with the birth certificate once you get a birth certificate you can get food stamps you

37:29

again you can’t get healthcare you can get case management what if you have nowhere to receive it I mean actually that’s a good question The Salvation Army has a program the one in the Salvation Army hearing in okay they have a program specifically for that the person that doesn’t have an address to go in and and and that they have the case manager that there will help you fill out the forms mail them away pay the cost you know I see and so and the mayor and then it would come through all the three islands or four

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one here and I only know about the one reason I’m asking you know I’ve talking I’ve talked to people that are homeless on other islands in Maui County and the facilities and available things there are very little so hearing about a Salvation Army could help somebody on a neighboring Island where there literally is nothing so but mostly people try to befriend someone who can help them a lot of people that aren’t homeless I find they’re very standoffish you know because of and like you say because of I

38:53

don’t know if it’s mental health issues because of being homeless or the mental health issues caused them from being homeless so I think more this that people being homeless start to get crazy oh definitely I mean and and it doesn’t really matter where the chicken or the egg why not help people where they’re at and where if they’re homeless I mean all that can do is exacerbate any mental health or addiction problems that you have how about the guy that what is he who wears trash bags no we all seen him

39:34

who’s he he’s a key a fixture in there oh absolutely and what’s what’s his trip he is seriously mentally ill probably I you know i-i’ve he’s been her I’ve spoken to him a half a dozen times in the last three or four years he doesn’t talk I mean this guy is probably my paranoid schizophrenic and is that someone that could get help from someone isn’t it there’s a pity that this brings us around to another issue yeah this guy I mean everybody was in Kihei knows the

40:14

trash bag guy no I mean he’s been done roaming the streets he’s got his a set program that he goes through on a daily basis and you know people try to help him and I do but he’s very shy and he doesn’t he I he runs away from people and he there’s all kinds of benefits that he qualifies for but he has to be willing to do so the only time that I’ve ever seen him close to normal or what we consider normal is you know periodically he’s hospitalized because he you know given it for health issues

41:03

and and then back onto the street right and now with with Kaiser taking over I mean yes I mean it I said there’s a whole regime that happens since we’ve lost we lost knowing Memorial Hospital is Maui more memorial was had had was sensitive to the issues of the homeless there’s this interesting you say that I’ve seen someone called me and said I just picked up this guy that has his leg all bandaged up who’s homeless has been sitting on the grass and I went back hours later and he was still there I

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mean I just don’t understand is there some one or a group in our community that can scoop people up I say scoop them up give them help I mean give them the basics that it needs to live are we that shy of resources is there no money there must be money for something I mean I just am appalled not there’s too many restrictions to helping people are afraid to help the homeless because they’re worried they’re gonna steal from them or they’re gonna do something to them and there I don’t know what to do about that does

42:25

anyone know what to do with you so you can call us but we need to know what our politicians you know we hire and get these politicians in office and somehow think they’re going to have solutions I don’t see many solutions especially if they take money it takes the public each individual to do some you said it earlier people have to get involved and help they have to really recognize that they are part of the help no agency is going to take away the problems that are at the stage that right now you know I I

43:00

see ice I see a glimmer of hope is that I see more and more people that just regular people that come down to the park with the pot of food and just go up and say hi and then you know I mean it’s it’s like three years ago there was three or four people that did that now there’s probably 25 or 30 people that are doing that that they come you know that not it’s been not regularly not on the consistent there is there is some people that do like in Kalama Park they there’s somebody mature

43:39

CH that comes on Sunday and does a potluck and they have a have a Wednesday and there’s another group that doesn’t let a Thursday dinner but I’m seeing more and more of just individual people just going out because the content and in Kalama they think there’s a and one of the what do you call them covered yeah one of the covered areas right z-bo yeah they they lived I mean they they own that part of the park there’s no in any given time ten or fifteen or twenty even thirty people there and so people

44:14

aren’t using it because they’re there right well I mean I what better use for a public facility I mean it’s so here we go I’m just mad no and then we about okay we’re gonna create a park and then people are afraid to use it because there are people there who need it for their very survival that are hanging out but they don’t make it comfortable for them or their kids and so they complain and then that things get out of control Kalama Park is really four years it’s been the place where people hang out

44:54

I’ve seen so many things go down there but when you sit and talk to the people that are homeless some of them really want help they don’t want to be in this situation although some have mental health challenges and some have drug challenges this is a problem anyone can go through stop you get a little sick you lose your paycheck it just is a real problem yep I mean I in the in the eight years I’ve lived in kiei I have probably seen a hundred people that lost their jobs lost their home now they’re now they’re

45:34

in now they’re homeless and they can’t get a job because they can’t get clean enough you know so becomes a spiraling downward cycle you know but for the grace of God go I I mean you know it says when people are one one paycheck away from a disaster and that’s the way it is and we we can talk about it I would but Talk’s cheap for me it’s it’s reach one teach one you know go out there and help somebody stick with it and then that person gets on their feet and that and they help someone and

46:23

that’s that that’s that’s the solution to me because we could spend the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and if there isn’t that hope and love and togetherness it’s you know throw it just throwing money at the problem isn’t going to work we need people helping people I’ve seen some of the social workers that are in these programs that are totally burnt out I mean totally burnt down yep that’s part of that um that’s part of I worked from the time I was 17 and into my 30s

47:07

doing nothing but alcohol and drug abuse by my 30s I was absolutely fried and and I stopped and what I what I do now is I I had I had no like right now I’m I have four or five people on my plate that I’m helping through various phases of trying to get off the streets but I’m but I do it at my time had at my pace and I’m you know when you’re he’s like I have I have personally have a case manager she has 40 clients I’m one at 40 then and she has 40 people that she does

47:55

an excellent job with to the best of what she has as resources available yes that’s probably the limiting factor right that’s what I see that social workers are very caring people and they are with no resources to help another that’s not true there’s no resource okay now to me housing has got to be first if you can’t get someone clean and showered and a safe place to sleep in be or cook I I have watched people that are living on the street you can’t food stamps you can’t get hot food with food stamps

48:36

that ever seemed crazy to me crazy I know but your sceptile ‘t paper on food stamps in West Virginia you can get you can use your food stamps to go to McDonald’s that’s a local decision it’s made on a local basis then they why why can’t I buy McDonald’s in West Virginia and I can’t buy McDonald’s in Hawaii that was the local decision is that right I just know that the resources are good you know we all think that these resources are unlimited or you know we can keep giving them out but obviously

49:21

that’s not the case but the private sector where there is no food stamps there is lots of food and people are donating somehow it’s not reaching where it needs to reach I don’t really think that there’s a lack sometime of resources there’s a lack of a well I did I’ll give you a prime example okay that no I live a block and a half from food laughs right I saw you know it’s I see when daily what’s going on yeah there’s a whole group of people that live over by ad they get all their

50:03

food for and what food land throws out there’s you know what they call it tipster dumping Oh dumpster divers that right dumpster I mean good stuff I I remember I went into 8 o’clock in the morning I went into to food land I’d get a cup of coffee and and then and they have a big cheese aisle right and then the compressor had gone off and there was literally four full garbage shopping carts full of cheese that they were throwing out because it was past its day no no it’s because it had gotten the the

50:50

cooling thing overnight stopped and they’re so they’re mandated if the thing stops they have to get rid of now I went I saw I said to the woman you’re here throw this out so I just said yes I said what can I take one no no and I said well how about if I take all of it no I then went to the store manager and I said this is this is crazy man you and I both know this is mystery this cheese is perfectly okay and and furthermore you know that I can take it over to the park and have it gone and second in minutes

51:40

and his response was well we’re gonna throw it in the trash on the 6:30 run but hit your head he had to take this perfectly good food throw it into a dumpster no he did give silly way and there’s just sort of no low said a week and a whatever yeah an aside and so you know we fed from stole on the park trees for the next 40 days but that happens every single day yeah I mean the like food land McDonald’s – all of them but they you know at the end of the evening the the hot chickens that

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you should be able to buy with food stamps you know there’s only five or six or seven of those they just right and I remember one homeless lady told me that part of what she does is she picks up the chicken and potatoes from the minute stop and brings them out no I know and then the people that are out there are expecting her to do this and when then she doesn’t do it they give her problems oh well now we saw we spoke about this earlier I want to go back you know there’s there’s some

53:00

point where you you you got to stop helping some people know especially like in a in addiction field and you know if they’re if your help is helping them to continue enable them to and there’s a point what you have to say no no just no and that’s very hard and families get caught up in it so much I mean I’ve I I have friends that are Martin by age 60 to 70 year olds that you know they’re going through the third generation of ice within their families so and and if you you could turn to virtually anybody

53:50

in the island especially people in feta mean what we’re talking about is no way there’s a dozen names NATO unclear their grandkids go through it right and it’s and it’s an epidemic it’s an epidemic it’s it’s and it’s it is deadly I mean I’ve I’ve been in the in the field since I was 19 I’m now 70 and this drug is I called devil dust and I have seen perfectly normal healthy people come in took one hit and gone I mean is it is diabolical I mean it dives I’ve

54:42

seen over and over and over and over again young people then you know there’s just out partying with their friends and and the next thing I know they’re selling their bodies on the street yeah well we’re less than two minutes in I mean this this subject I keep wondering here we’ve been sitting sitting and talking for now and we talked about hard and steadfast and the Holi Mahalo for seniors but have we really come to any kind of handle on what people can do why don’t I give you a minute to you’re hit

55:13

aren’t if someone’s in a challenge what they could do it’s not a fair question I mean it’s a rough edit I did compassion from the public is probably the greatest thing that can do and help there’s no simple answer to that if you have the time and you have the heart to have the money just reach out do doing anything is better than doing nothing even if it’s just bringing food just a spot you a home to a homeless person are homeless place I mean if you live here that so that that that would

55:59

be my best guess this is just one one step one person at a time well I’ve been speaking with Ron Fogel Ron Fogel is a citizen and a champion who has helped a lot of people try to find their way through a very difficult time Ron I appreciate the time you spend here on the show I hope that people will be in touch with this problem and try to start helping people the UH neutral zone we are signing off now Aloha know what happens