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Jason with Debra Greene, Ph.D. about stopping “Smart Meters on Maui and in Hawaii and in general – recorded 5-2012 in the Green Room. Educate yourself about what smart meters are and how harmful they are.
Summary & Transcript Below…
[00:48 → 01:38] Introduction and Guest IntroductionJason Schwartz welcomes Debra Greene to discuss the topic of smart meters, a subject of growing concern and controversy. Debra is introduced as a knowledgeable guest who has championed awareness about smart meters. The intent is to inform the audience about the potential risks and issues associated with smart meters, encouraging viewers to share the information widely.
[01:38 → 04:52] Debra’s Involvement and the Concept of Human Energy Systems
Debra explains her background as an energy health specialist, focusing on teaching people about managing and improving their energy levels. She became alarmed when she learned that smart meters were being introduced on Maui because smart meters emit high-frequency radio frequency (RF) radiation, similar to that from cell phones and Wi-Fi, which negatively impacts the human energy system.
She clarifies that when she talks about “energy,” she refers not only to physical energy but also to a non-physical energy body, sometimes called the biofield, etheric body, or vital body. This energy body was formally recognized by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in 1995 as a real, non-physical aspect that surrounds and permeates the human body. This energy system influences physical, emotional, and mental functioning and is vital for overall well-being. It extends beyond the physical body through systems like chakras and meridians, affecting how humans survive and thrive.
[04:52 → 07:32] What Is a Smart Meter and How Does It Work?
Jason and Debra discuss the nature of smart meters. A smart meter is an electrical meter that measures electricity usage but differs from traditional meters because it uses radio frequency signals to communicate usage data in real-time. This is a two-way communication system where the meter sends detailed data to a “smart grid,” a network connecting many smart meters, which in turn communicates with centralized computers—often located on the mainland, far from the local homes.
The smart grid aims to optimize energy distribution by managing demand, reducing peak loads, and improving grid efficiency. Additionally, smart meters are intended to provide consumers with detailed feedback on their energy consumption, potentially down to the level of individual appliances.- [07:32 → 10:21] Intended Benefits vs. Reality of Smart Meters
The purported benefits include improved energy efficiency and consumer awareness via online portals that track appliance-level consumption. However, Debra questions the necessity of such technology since people already know which appliances consume more electricity. She emphasizes that the real concerns extend beyond energy efficiency, highlighting three main issues:
- Health risks from constant RF radiation emitted by smart meters.
- Privacy invasion due to detailed monitoring and data collection inside homes.
- Increased vulnerability of the interconnected smart grid to cyberattacks and natural disasters like solar flares, which could cause widespread power failures beyond localized areas.
[10:21 → 13:13] Vulnerability and Risks of the Smart Grid
Debra explains that the interconnected nature of the smart grid makes the entire electrical system more fragile. A solar flare or cyberattack could cause cascading failures affecting entire regions or countries, rather than isolated local outages like those historically experienced. She references cybersecurity expert David Chalk, who predicts a 100% certainty of catastrophic smart grid failure within three years, underscoring the urgency of halting the project.- [13:13 → 16:15] Health Effects Linked to Radio Frequency Radiation
Debra details the wide array of health problems linked to RF radiation exposure, including brain tumors, childhood leukemia, sleep disorders, neurological dysfunctions, immune system compromise, cognitive decline, dementia, and even autism. She emphasizes that virtually every aspect of human biological functioning can be affected by RF radiation.
Despite this, the mainstream media often downplays or confuses the issue, likely due to the influence of the powerful telecom industry, which reaps enormous profits from wireless technologies and has an interest in proliferating them without fully addressing health risks. - [16:15 → 18:32] Regulatory Gaps and Exponential Increase in Electromagnetic Radiation
Current regulations on RF radiation were established decades ago, primarily in the 1980s, long before modern wireless technologies like cell phones and Wi-Fi became ubiquitous. Even though there was an update around 2001, it has not kept pace with the explosive growth in electromagnetic radiation exposure. Between 2003 and 2007, electromagnetic radiation increased by an astronomical factor (one million billion times), and since then, exposure has continued to grow exponentially due to the proliferation of multiple devices per person.
This massive increase means society is essentially participating in a large-scale, uncontrolled experiment with unknown long-term health consequences, without informed consent. - [18:32 → 21:10] Pervasiveness of Smart Meter Radiation and Lack of Control
Unlike other devices like cell phones or Wi-Fi routers, which individuals can choose to use or turn off, smart meters are installed on homes and operate continuously without user control. Debra shares her personal experience living in Maui Meadows where the smart meter is mounted on her bedroom wall, exposing her to radiation 24/7 without any option to disable or relocate it.
While smart meter installation is voluntary on Maui, it is mandatory on the mainland and on the island of Kauai (though Kauai has recently obtained a temporary injunction allowing opt-out). This lack of control and constant exposure heightens health concerns. 
[21:10 → 25:20] Privacy and Surveillance Concerns
Smart meters collect highly detailed data on household energy consumption, down to specific appliances and patterns, such as when residents wake up, go to bed, or are in particular rooms. This data is sent to centralized databases on the mainland, not stored locally, raising serious privacy issues.
The information has high commercial value and could be sold to marketers or other entities without consumer knowledge or consent. This extensive surveillance is akin to having a spy inside the home, with permanent records of personal behavior and habits.- [25:20 → 28:32] Economic and Social Impact: Job Loss and Ineffectiveness in Energy Conservation
Automated smart meters eliminate the need for local meter readers, potentially causing job losses in communities. Moreover, smart meters themselves do not directly reduce energy consumption; any savings depend on consumers actively monitoring their usage online and changing behavior—which is rare in practice.
This undermines the environmental rationale for the smart grid and highlights a disconnect between promises and reality. - [28:32 → 30:12] Potential for Remote Control and Forced Appliance Shutoff
Smart meters’ two-way communication enables utilities to remotely control and even shut off appliances without homeowner consent, which raises concerns about autonomy and control. Utilities argue this feature provides convenience, such as turning off an air conditioner during peak loads or when a customer is away, but Debra finds the prospect of losing control over home appliances deeply troubling. - [30:12 → 34:00] Resources and Call to Action
Debra encourages viewers to educate themselves using websites such as StopSmartMetersHawaii.com and stopsmartmeters.org. She urges people to sign petitions to halt smart meter installations in Hawaii and elsewhere.
She also highlights that many installations occur without proper notice, especially in rental properties, so individuals should check their meters regularly to ensure unauthorized smart meters have not been installed. 
[34:00 → 38:57] Scientific Research and Misleading Industry Claims
Debra explains the confusion around research on RF radiation. The telecom industry relies on outdated studies focusing only on thermal effects (heating of tissue) to argue safety, ignoring non-thermal biological effects. She uses a metaphor involving living cats in microwave ovens to illustrate how living organisms experience harmful effects long before tissue heating occurs.
She mentions that while ionizing radiation like X-rays is well-studied, non-ionizing RF radiation at microwave frequencies has different and often overlooked biological impacts. The industry-funded studies claiming smart meters emit less radiation than cell phones are flawed and misleading.- [38:57 → 40:47] Flawed Industry Research and Actual Radiation Levels
A recent analysis by UC Santa Cruz lecturer Daniel Hirsch reveals that smart meters emit 100 times more radiation than cell phones, contradicting industry claims. Hirsch’s research exposes major methodological flaws in the industry’s studies and emphasizes the need for independent, unbiased research.
This finding is alarming given the widespread installation of smart meters and their constant operation in residential settings. - [40:47 → 43:26] Broader Deployment and Global Impact
The deployment of smart meters is a global phenomenon, extending even to developing countries. The term “deploy” reflects a militaristic approach, underscoring the aggressive rollout despite unresolved health and privacy issues.
Debra stresses that the concerns about health, privacy, and infrastructure vulnerability make smart meters a bad idea universally. - [43:26 → 46:43] Additional Resources and Personal Investigations
Debra provides additional resources including her own website, YourEnergyMatters.com, which hosts videos demonstrating radiation measurements in typical homes. These videos show alarming levels of radiation from common household electronics such as baby monitors (emitting 300 times the safe level), cordless phones, and compact fluorescent bulbs.
She advises using corded phones instead of cordless or cell phones to reduce exposure. She acknowledges the difficulty in perceiving these invisible frequencies but stresses their documented impacts on human health. 
[46:43 → 51:14] Encouragement to Educate and Advocate
Jason and Debra emphasize the importance of becoming informed and actively engaging in conversations about smart meters. They encourage viewers to be prepared with facts when discussing the issue and to motivate others to research and act.
They highlight that the effects of RF radiation accumulate over time, posing particular risks to children and future generations, who are exposed from birth to increasingly saturated electromagnetic environments.- [51:14 → 54:30] Confusion, Greenewashing, and Opposition within Environmental Circles
The smart meter initiative is heavily “Greenewashed,” meaning proponents market it as an environmentally friendly solution, promoting energy efficiency and sustainability. However, Debra, an environmentalist herself, points out that this narrative masks the serious health and privacy risks.
This has caused divisions within environmental communities, with some supporting the smart grid and others opposing it due to the hidden dangers. Debra urges rethinking and seeking alternative methods to improve energy efficiency without compromising health. 
[54:30 → 57:40] Local Experiences and Failed Projects
Debra recounts a failed smart meter pilot project on Oahu where 9,400 meters were installed but the project suffered communication failures and cost millions of taxpayer dollars. The Hawaii Public Utilities Commission denied a second pilot project there.
She speculates this failure may have driven the utility to start a pilot on Maui instead. She notes that smart meters are present on Oahu now, but details on current operations are unclear.- [57:40 → 59:27] Closing Thoughts on Energy Bodies and Call to Continued Awareness
Debra reiterates the importance of recognizing the energy body and the subtle energies that influence human health and interactions, such as vibrations and feelings about people. She compares it to traditional healing practices like acupuncture, which acknowledge energy systems but remain underutilized in Western medicine.
She encourages ongoing education, awareness, and advocacy to protect health and privacy, concluding with a reminder to visit StopSmartMetersHawaii.com to sign petitions and learn more.
Her book, Endless Energy: The Essential Guide to Energy Health, is recommended for those wishing to delve deeper into understanding and caring for their energy systems.
This comprehensive discussion reveals the multifaceted concerns surrounding smart meters—from health risks and privacy invasions to infrastructure vulnerabilities and flawed regulatory frameworks—urging individuals and communities to become informed and take action.
00:48
Aloha! I’m Jason Schwartz and I’m here in the Green Room. We have a guest today, just by coincidence, I don’t know if it is, but it sure is. This is Debra Greene. Debra is here really for a very important subject. You know, sometimes we have music, sometimes we have people that are talking about politics or whatever.
01:14
But today, we’re going to talk about something called a smart meter, which you’re going to find out in just a second isn’t so smart. At least, I think you’ll make your own decision, but wait till you hear this. First of all, Debra, thank you for joining me here. My pleasure. Thank you. Oh, you’re welcome.
01:38
where should we begin? How did you get involved to even hear about a smart meter and bring us to this point? Because you’ve been a champion to let people know and that’s why we’re doing this show because we want all of you
01:51
to share this show and share these ideas and websites with everyone that you know okay yes well i first got involved in smart meters because i’m an energy health specialist which means i teach people about their energy levels and the different aspects of their energy and how to improve their energies and so forth and
02:20
I began to discover that the high frequency radio frequency radiation such as that is emitted by cell phones and Wi-Fi on the computer and baby monitors and things like that, that that has a really detrimental effect on our energy system. And so then when I heard
02:46
that smart meters were coming to Maui, I got really alarmed. For those of our audience, when you say our energy system, can you give them a quick idea what that means? I mean, most people know the physical body. Right. Well, energy is really the most important thing. It’s the most important aspect to us because if you don’t have energy, you really can’t function on any level at all.
03:16
I mean, if you don’t have energy, you can’t move around, you know, in your physical body. If you don’t have energy emotionally, you can be really off. If you don’t have energy, your mind doesn’t function well, you know, becomes fuzzy and foggy and confused. So it’s that. It’s physical energy is what you’re talking about.
03:36
It turns out that our energy is much more than physical. I’m not so much talking about physical energy, I’m actually talking about non-physical energy. Sometimes it’s referred to as the biofield, or as the vital body, or sometimes the etheric body.
03:56
But this energy dimension, this energy body aspect to us was formally recognized by the National Institutes of Health in 1995. They formally recognized the existence of this non-physical energy aspect of human beings. That my energy body could impact your energy body. Correct.
04:23
And carries further than our physical surface, is what you’re saying. Yes, exactly. It permeates, it’s interwoven into the physical body through the chakra system and the meridian system. You’ve maybe heard those terms before. So those are the distribution channels of this energy as it’s woven into the physical body and it also extends beyond the physical body for a couple of inches.
04:52
the NIH defined this energy body as a non-physical energy that permeates and surrounds the human body well described yeah they got it they did which means that there was enough research legitimizing the existence of this energy body for them to make this formal
05:17
And this energy body is important in the way, like you say, we function and survive and thrive. It’s vital. So here comes smart meters. You heard that smart meters were coming to Hawaii. What’s a smart meter? Well, a smart meter is an electrical meter.
05:43
It’s like the electrical meter that you have on your home, also on schools, businesses, and so forth, and it’s the meter that measures your usage. When they read the usage, okay. Correct. But, I mean, it’s not really like…
06:01
the existing electrical meter that most people have because a smart meter is operating with a radio frequency signal that allows the meter to communicate. And it’s actually a two-way communication. So the smart meter is designed to read what’s going on inside your home and to track your electrical usage
06:31
And then it transmits, it communicates that information to what’s called a smart grid. And a smart grid is all the little smart meters all hooked up together into a network.
06:45
And then the smart grid communicates with some computers. And in the case of the smart meters that are being installed on Maui, those computers actually are on the mainland. So all of the data from inside your home
07:02
on Maui is being transmitted to computers on the mainland. To what purpose? Are they able to then generate less power, less demand, or shift power to different places because of that? Is that what they say? Yes. So the purpose of the smart meters and smart grid is to help make energy grid more efficient. And so because they’re getting constant,
07:32
or relatively constant feedback, real-time feedback about electrical usage inside the homes, then it can help them control the grid better and move loads around so that we can avoid maxing out the grid at peak times and so forth. And the other purpose that it serves or is intended to serve
08:01
It’s questionable. All of this is questionable, by the way. But I’m just telling you what the purpose of it is. Yeah, that’s what I figured. Let’s start. Because why would they even introduce this? Right. So the other thing that it is supposed to do is give consumers
08:19
a very detailed feed out of their electrical usage. And so eventually they’re going to launch websites where people can log in and see what’s happening in terms of individual appliances or electrical devices that they’re using in their homes. And they can analyze them and say, oh, gee, that
08:44
blow dryer that I’m using is really sucking up a lot of energy, or, oh, when I turn on my… Well, don’t you already know that? I mean, without any computer reading what I’m doing, every appliance has a rating on it. Right. So why don’t we just educate people about
09:02
A dryer uses a lot of electricity. A refrigerator uses a lot of electricity. An electric water heater uses a lot of electricity. Oh, I’m totally with you, Jason. I’m not here to defend smart meters or the smart grid, believe me. But that’s why I’m bringing it up even to our audience to say, yeah, a computer to tell you what your appliances are doing. Well, I don’t know if you need that.
09:27
and the other things that you brought up which we’re going to get into more is what it does to our energy bodies and how it affects us right and and there’s also i mean basically there’s there’s three concerns about the the smart meters and smart grid one is the negative health effects from radio frequency radiation being uh you know pretty
09:51
pretty much constantly emitted from these smart meters. Now, I’ll talk later about what constantly means because it’s not incessant, but it’s a lot. And the health effects, the negative health effects are a major concern. The second concern is privacy invasion and surveillance aspects of the smart meters because they’re basically spying on us. And the third concern is that
10:21
the interconnectedness of this huge, massive, conglomerate smart grid really makes all of our electrical grid way more vulnerable to cyber attack and to natural phenomena like solar flares. So instead of it just, you know, if there’s a solar flare, for example, in 1989, when a solar flare took out
10:50
the entire power system in the province of Quebec in Canada. That was a natural phenomenon. That was a solar flare. And these kinds of electronics are very vulnerable to things like solar flares. And if something like that should happen, not only would it be confined to one province or one state or one area, but it has the potential to take down the entire grid. And one of the
11:18
potentials of the smart grid is this kind of interconnectivity where it’s not even isolated to one neighborhood, one area, one state, but it becomes a national and potentially even international. So for those that might think terrorism, you’re now posing a really good thing to aim at. Correct. To the extent that
11:47
cyber attack expert David chalk recently came out saying that there is 100% Certainty of catastrophic failure of the smart grid within three years Wow, yes, and so he’s he’s calling for an urgent halt to this smart grid so now
12:13
we’ve seen already i mean i say we’ve seen already when you heard about it it’s coming here so you’ve heard about it so it’s nothing new right no in fact uh on the mainland there there are many many smart Greenee smart meters and smart grids in the state of california where i think they have probably the highest concentration they just a couple of days ago installed their
12:41
9 millionth smart meter.
12:45
So, you know, high concentration of smart meters in the state of California, and other states as well, and people, and as well in Canada. So, it’s, you know, I first heard about it on the mainland and was thinking and hoping, okay, maybe it will just stay there, because people have been having all kinds of problems as a result of having smart meters installed in their homes. Problems like what? Health problems.
13:13
Be specific if you can. The reason I want to be specific is only because even though we look here and we see a camera lens, we know there are going to be millions of people talking about a viral video. People need to hear about this. So I just want to be specific. Right. Well, the health effects of radio frequency radiation are quite well established.
13:42
And there’s a whole range of them. And, you know, at one end of the continuum we have cancers, particularly tumors, brain tumors. Radiofrequency radiation has been linked to childhood leukemia. Also sleep disorders, neurological dysfunctions.
14:04
dysfunctions in cell behavior, it compromises the immune system, it’s also been tied to inhibited brain functioning, confusion, dementia, the list goes on and on. And recently, what was the most recent study I read, linked to autism.
14:28
So, you know, and there’s been one researcher in this arena of radio frequency radiation who has come out and said that there is virtually no aspect of human biological functioning that is not affected by radio frequency radiation. Well, I mean…
14:51
That’s powerful. Yes, it is and well, I mean I could talk a little more about that because one of the problems is most people don’t know this and They don’t know about all these negative health effects and that’s because in the mainstream media this this issue is really confused and
15:18
We have reason to believe that that confusion is purposeful and intentional on the part of the telecom industry. And they are, of course, in charge of all of these wireless technologies. Cell phones, Wi-Fi, smart meters, all of this kind of technology falls under this domain of the telecom industry.
15:45
And the telecom industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. And they rake in about $500 billion in revenue per year. And Wow is right. And we have reason to believe that they don’t have our best interest in mind. And they really want to just proliferate these kinds of technologies at a very rapid rate.
16:15
base without really investigating the effects on human beings and human health. An important piece of this is that the current regulations that govern radio frequency radiation, which is a high frequency level of radiation, and most of the guidelines which were set by the FCC were set back in
16:45
the 1980s and in the 1980s we didn’t have cell phones and wi-fi you know we didn’t have all of these technologies it’s never been updated well it has been updated um and apparently the most recent update if i’m remembering it correctly happened in 2001. um but still electromagnetic radiation
17:15
has increased one million billion times in this five-year window from 2003 to 2007. One million billion? Yes. I mean, it’s a number that you can’t even really… That’s why you say it that way rather than a gazillionth. Right. So much that it is dramatic. And we’ve seen…
17:43
Medical costs go up, and people are having more and more health problems, exponentially more and more and more, and food is a reason, and this is another major reason. Yes. So, you know, and that number, the increase of electromagnetic radiation increasing 100 million billion times, that was, you know, 2003 to 2007. Well, okay, we’re in 2012 now.
18:12
I mean, and it increases exponentially because, you know, how many people have more than one cell phone? How many people have a cell phone plus an iPad plus Wi-Fi on the computer? You know, we just keep adding and adding, so it has like a compounding effect. So the bottom line is that we are saturated.
18:32
with these frequencies and that we’re living in this grand experiment where we are all guinea pigs and we didn’t sign up to be guinea pigs in this experiment. Nobody asked our permission to do this and the effects on human health are really of grave concern because, as I started out saying a moment ago,
19:01
when these regulations were set for these safety limits they were based on people who work like electrical engineers who work with you know radars or they work in close proximity to technologies that emit you know huge amounts of microwave frequency that’s another thing i need to say is radio frequency radiation is in the microwave frequency range so we’re talking about
19:28
microwave energy here. And we know it has the capacity to cook things because we use it in microwave ovens. So that’s the kind, when I say radio frequency radiation, I’m talking about microwave range frequency energy here.
19:48
And like you also said, which is true, the more of these that are installed and the more devices we have that have that anyway. Yes. But this one is right in our home. Yes. And it’s sort of like creating a… It’s pervasive. So, you know, I can choose to own a cell phone or not. I can choose to turn my cell phone off or have it on.
20:16
I can choose to have Wi-Fi on my computer or to plug it in with a cable. That’s my choice. But when I have a smart meter installed in my home, I have no control over it. I can’t shut it off. It operates 24-7, 365. And I can’t move it around. And in my home in particular, I live in Maui Meadows, which is where the pilot project is happening.
20:46
My electrical meter happens to be mounted on my bedroom wall and that’s a big concern because we don’t want to be sleeping in close proximity to devices that emit this kind of radiation because obviously there’s major health effects to that. Now I can’t move the meter.
21:10
So, you know, I would have to move my bedroom, I guess. Now, I mean, luckily with the Maui Meadows pilot project, it’s voluntary. So they’re not installing, you know, mandatory meters on Maui at this point in time. They are on the mainland.
21:28
I mean, it’s mandatory, yes. And on Kauai as well, mandatory smart meter installation until very recently, actually. On Kauai, they just recently got a federal injunction to stop the mandatory installation of these smart meters and allowed for a temporary opt-out. And so Kauai is having their own issues right now. Issues. Yeah. So what…
21:55
What kind of things can we ask our audience to do besides investigating and find out that everything that we’re saying here, which we’re going to give you some websites here in a minute, but what can they do? Well, I think the most important thing is to educate yourselves. There are lots of resources available online that expose the dark side of smart meters
22:25
So that’s a big piece. I also invite you to please sign our petition. We have a petition to stop the Smart Grid project in Hawaii, and the website for that is www.stopsmartmetershawaii.com.
22:46
And that’s our website. And on the website, on the opening page, you can click and sign the petition. So that’s an empowering thing to do is to sign the petition.
22:58
And also on our website, we have a lot of resources and we have a message board. Will we know when someone comes to our home and says, hi, we’re ready to put in a smart meter? Do they give you notice in some fashion? Well, as I said earlier, here on Maui, it’s voluntary. And so there shouldn’t be anyone knocking on your door saying we’re here to install a smart meter.
23:20
unless you are renting. And if you are at a rental property, it’s possible that your landlord might have signed up for the program.
23:32
in which case you might not even get a knock on the door. I mean, they just would come and switch out your meter and put in a new one. So, you know, check your meter. Make sure that hasn’t happened while you’re gone. I’ve looked at a smart meter, a picture I’ve sold of a smart meter, and it says in-out. It is absolutely a two-way…
23:57
it’s a two-way device yes it’s like a two-way radio and they’re licensed by the fcc and they have wattage and you know everything else yes um and and they’re digital but not every digital meter is a smart meter and sometimes there’s confusion around around that and the difference between a digital meter a net meter a networked meter and a smart meter is the smart meter has memory
24:20
It’s tracking every minutia of your electrical life and it also communicates with a smart grid. So it knows when you’re up and when you’re down and when you’re in this room? Correct, and that all happens because every electrical device or appliance has a unique electrical signature, we could say.
24:46
And so, yes, they can tell what devices you’re using, what appliances you’re using, for how long you’re using them, what rooms you’re occupying in your home.
24:55
what time you get up in the morning and what time you go to bed at night because of the use of lights and all sorts of things. So the protection of all that information, like you said, it’s a real invasion of our privacy. It is a big invasion. It’s like having a spy in your home. And the challenging thing about that is that it’s all being recorded permanently and
25:20
we have not been told what is going to be done with that information. And that kind of information, those details about people’s electrical lives and the devices that they’re using and so forth, has a very high consumer value. Meaning, marketing companies, companies that manufacture these devices, that information is golden to them. And we have no idea
25:49
you know, what’s being done with it. And we have, I mean, it could be just sold to the highest bidder. I mean, we really don’t know because it’s not being disclosed. And it’s held by each electric company or is it central? No. It’s all central.
26:04
It’s all centralized. And, for example, I mentioned earlier, the information from inside your home, if you have a smart meter, the information from inside your home on Maui Meadows in Maui, Hawaii, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, that information goes straight to the mainland. All of the details. It does not stay here. It doesn’t stay on Maui. It doesn’t stay in Hawaii.
26:28
And at this point, we don’t have an interconnected grid power anyway, right? Correct. We’re all islands. So why do they need that data? It’s just the way the smart grid works. I’m just saying, why would they need that data? Does it help them so they don’t have to send out a metered reader? Right. And from that respect, it’s going to put local people out of work. Out of work. Because, you know, the meter readers come and read our meters.
26:57
And now they’re being replaced by computers on the mainland. Is this really what we want? I don’t think so. I mean, in this economy, we need to pay attention to jobs and supporting the people who live here.
27:12
And instead, people are going to be, you know, put out of work and replaced by computers on the mainland. Sort of like when you go to the airport and they say, we have two ticket takers and 19 machines. I always wait for the ticket taker. And they say, well, you can use that machine. I say, well…
27:31
If I keep using that machine, then I don’t need to use you. Right. You know, what is that doing? Yes. Isn’t it funny that we’re replacing ourselves with machines, and are we using the time that we have left for anything else?
27:48
to make us greater beings? Well, I mean, it’s another interesting point of the whole smart meter thing is that the smart meters themselves do nothing to reduce our energy consumption. Nothing whatsoever. And the whole issue is being totally Greeneewashed. And any savings that comes about
28:14
is supposed to happen by people logging on to their website and tracking, you know, looking at their consumption and then cutting down on using the appliances that are, you know, electricity hogs or whatever. And the places that have this, it’s being shown that people are not doing this.
28:32
They’re not accessing the websites. They’re too busy. Sort of like recycling. They’re living their lives, and they’re doing whatever, and they’re too busy to actually do it. So this whole myth about, oh, people are going to learn what they’re using and not using and how to use it better is a myth, actually. It’s not happening. Well, that’s why I just said about recycling. It’s like they found that recycling happens best when people are forced to recycle.
29:02
Otherwise, because voluntary is… Well, and here’s another thing now that you’re speaking about forced, because the potential exists in a very real way for the smart meters to shut off appliances in your home.
29:19
And the companies that are advancing these technologies readily talk about that. It’s like, gee, think of the convenience. If you go on vacation and you forget to turn off your air conditioner, we can just do that for you. And yes, they have the capacity, because it’s a two-way transmission in the smart meter, and they’re designed to communicate with so-called smart appliances.
29:47
that they can shut things off inside your home without you even being there. Now, you know, to me that’s not a comforting thought. Like I don’t go, oh, yay, convenience. I go, I don’t want somebody else shutting off my appliances and controlling my appliances. Or it’s, we’re in our home using our air conditioner and suddenly they read something and they say, wait,
30:12
That air condition has been on too long. Let’s turn it off. Exactly. Or they say, oh, we’re having a power outage on Oahu. I think Maui doesn’t need that much power right now. Right. I mean, anything could happen. You know, anything could happen. So it is scary. So let me make sure that we state stopsmartmetershawaii.com. Yes.
30:35
Now, there are a lot of articles. I know that recently I mentioned it to someone in Montana, and they had heard about it. There was someone on a show late night. So this information is out there. Are there any other websites people should be checking? Yes, there are. To be able to… Yes. There’s actually a couple more things that I would like to mention that I think are really important. And one thing is…
31:07
I alluded to this earlier by saying that this issue is really confused because you’ll hear from the industry and you’ll hear from the proponents that there is no research talking about the negative health effects of this kind of radiation.
31:27
The reason that that’s so confused is because there’s two different sets of research happening. There’s a very important distinction between those two sets of research that I’d like to explain. We know a lot about what is called ionizing radiation.
31:51
And that’s the radiation that comes from x-rays and gamma rays. It’s very potent, very strong. And that’s why when you go to the dentist’s office and get an x-ray, you have to put on a lead apron and all of that. And that kind of radiation has been studied a lot. And much of the research was done on thermal effects, meaning
32:20
the human body starts to heat up when it gets exposed to radiation like that. Now, this other kind of radiation, which is radio frequency radiation or non-ionizing radiation, it’s in a different frequency range. It’s in the microwave frequency range. And a lot of the research that’s being done on this higher frequency, radio frequency or microwave frequency radiation
32:49
is still looking at it from that old perspective and saying, well, the human body doesn’t heat up. There’s no thermal effects from using a cell phone or having a smart meter. Therefore, nothing’s happening. Therefore, it’s completely safe. Nothing’s happening in the physical body that makes this dangerous.
33:14
I, and this is what confuses the issue so much because, you know, the people who are proponents and the industry are pointing to old research and saying, you know, no thermal effects, therefore safe. But those of us who know better, and I hope you will be among them, we know that we can’t just study thermal effects of microwave frequency radiation because there are many, many things that happen to the human body
33:44
before it starts to heat up. And I can tell a little story about that if you’d like to help make that a little more vivid. And, you know, I apologize in advance because the story is hard to hear.
34:00
but I’m just trying to make a point. And I’m gonna talk about cats in a moment, and I wanna say that I love cats, and I have cats, and please don’t have the Humane Society call me because I’m not advocating anything bad about cats, okay? And the other thing I wanna say is I’m not saying that your smart meter is a microwave oven, all right? So with all those disclaimers heading off what I’m about to say here, it’s like this, Jason.
34:31
if I have a microwave oven and I have a piece of meat, a steak, and I want to cook it, I put it in the microwave oven, I turn the microwave oven on, and eventually the microwave will cook the meat. The meat will heat up and it will cook eventually. So those are thermal effects. That is the meat heating up. That’s
34:59
what they’re trying to say we only need to look at when it comes to human beings or other living creatures. But here’s the thing. If I take a living creature, not a dead piece of meat, but a living creature,
35:18
like a cat. And the reason I picked cats is because they’re biologically or genetically very similar to humans, by the way. Lots of research. Anyway, if I put the cat inside the microwave oven and I turn the microwave oven on, that cat is going to experience many, many changes
35:41
before its body starts to heat up, before it actually starts to cook. It’s going to experience levels of confusion and disorientation. It’s going to experience many multiple levels of stress with all of the effects of that.
36:03
all many, many very dramatic and detrimental changes are going to happen to that living creature before its flesh actually starts to heat up and it starts to cook. And so I’m using this metaphor because those effects
36:22
that whole realm of other effects, you know, stress levels, brain functioning, psychological issues, emotional trauma, and so forth and so on, none of that is being looked at or accounted for by the industry. They only are saying, you human beings are like a dead piece of meat,
36:47
and we’re only going to look at thermal effects. We’re not going to look at any of these other things that happen when living beings are exposed to these microwave
36:58
frequency and radio frequency radiation. Well, let me bring up something different, but comparable. There’s a gentleman named Nick Begich, Dr. Nick Begich, who’s in Alaska. And his father used to be a senator from there, passed away, went down an airplane flight. His brother, in fact, is, I think, senator now, or representative.
37:26
He put out a book called Angels Don’t Play This Harp, and it was H-A-A-R-P, High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program. Mm-hmm.
37:38
a program designed and used by the Navy for over-the-horizon radar to create effects to do exactly what you’re saying they haven’t studied. The Navy knows. A lot of people have heard about this HAARP project and have been really alarmed by it. Well, here we are. It’s being used on us through a different technology.
38:04
So maybe there hasn’t been study about the smart meter, but a high frequency, that’s what we’re talking about, a radio frequency. Well, there actually have been studies done on smart meters. Okay. And one of the most important, I think, is, I’m going to back up a moment and say, one of the favorite ploys of the industry is to say that smart meters are, they emit far less,
38:34
radio frequency radiation than cell phones and you know therefore it’s safe well number one that’s not true and I’ll tell you why in a moment but number two even if it was true it’s it’s like saying oh you’re smoking cigars well then here smoke cigarettes because that means it’s safe right
38:57
And I mean, so the logic of saying, oh, they emit way less than a cell phone, therefore they’re safe is ridiculous. It’s flawed because cell phones aren’t safe either. I mean, even the World Health Organization came out and categorized
39:12
radiofrequency radiation, cell phone radiation, as a class 2B carcinogen. Obviously, there’s enough research to legitimate that. At any rate, one of the things that we found out recently is that the research study that the telecom industry used to say that smart meters emit way less radiation than cell phones, that research study has been found to be flawed.
39:42
And this was first put forth by Daniel Hirsch, who is a senior lecturer in radiation at UC Santa Cruz. And when he examined how that research study was done, and it’s one study, and it’s used by the whole industry, and number one, it was industry-funded study. It was not an independent piece of research. It was funded by the industry themselves.
40:11
And it was flawed because they weren’t comparing apples to apples, they were comparing apples to oranges. Without going into all the technical details, that’s the gist of what the problem was. And when he corrected for that, he found that smart meters emit 100 times more radiation than a cell phone. Wow. Yeah.
40:38
That’s a lot. I hope that alarms you. I hope that when you’re hearing this, you’re saying to yourself, smart meters ain’t so smart.
40:47
Now, let me do more research. We’re smarter. You’re smarter. That’s right. And it’s a dummy. It’s almost, you know, without getting into all those conspiracy theories that we could all go off on a tangent, which people might say is a lot of… You know, you don’t even have to go anywhere near conspiracy land, you know, to know that these things are bad news and to know that, you know, they’re bad for health.
41:15
there’s privacy issues, and there’s also the vulnerability issue. And the fact that they’re just moving forward, deploying the smart meters, that’s the industry term for what they’re doing. Interesting term. It’s very military. I know. They’re on a mission here to deploy the smart meters all over the planet. I mean, even in third world countries they’re doing this, developing countries and…
41:42
So, not such a good thing. Wow. Would you be so kind, maybe we need to take a break to do it or not, but do you have some websites that people can look at? Yes. I mentioned ours, which is StopSmartMetersHawaii.com.
42:01
There’s also stopsmartmeters.org, which is kind of a clearinghouse website that has a lot of really valuable information about the smart meter issue. If you want to learn more about
42:17
the negative health effects of electromagnetic radiation and radio frequency radiation. A good website for that is bioinitiative.org. That’s bioinitiative.org. There’s also a couple of really great YouTube videos out there
42:38
One of them is by consulting engineer Rob States, and it’s a 33-minute video called The Dark Side of Smart Meters. Of all the videos I’ve watched, which are many, Rob does such a great job of just condensing into this little half-an-hour video all of the main points substantiated by research, and he is an expert in
43:05
pulse radiation. So this is his area of expertise and he just explains all of the issues and gives us the research behind it as to why smart meters are not such a good idea. Other websites are not coming to my mind right now.
43:26
Well, we’re going to put a list of them up at the end as well. So when the show is over, we don’t have too many credits. One of those pages we’re going to leave up is the websites. We’re going to give you enough time to write them down. Yes, and if you want to check out the report by Daniel Hirsch on how smart meters emit 100 times more radiation than cell phones, you can Google smart meters…
43:56
That very statement, smart meters emit 100 times more radiation than cell phones, and his video will come up. And Hirsch’s F, uh, F. Hirsch’s H-I-R-S-C-H. S-C-H, I believe, yes. Daniel, Daniel Hirsch. Okay. Well, YouTube’s a great tool, because we’re going to put this show not only on television here, but we’re going to put it on the YouTube so that all of you, not only can you watch it…
44:25
but you can send a link to your friends you know what else i can point out i can point out my website my my personal website because on it i have a couple of youtube videos called eight household electronics that are hurting you and my website is yourenergymatters.com and in those youtube videos i hired a master electrician to go through my home with testing equipment
44:55
to test radio frequency and other frequencies of radiation in my home and then we videotaped the whole thing. And I also offer solutions in the videos because my home was completely saturated with all kinds of radiation sources. And I don’t own a microwave oven but I borrowed one from a friend and we measured that and it was really scary.
45:24
And I also borrowed a baby monitor and we measured that and it was heart wrenching to see that a typical baby monitor was emitting 300 times the safe level of radiation, radio frequency radiation. Just really heartbreaking. And we also, you know, we measured the dirty electricity from compact fluorescent light bulbs. It’s another thing to pay attention to. Cordless phones, very bad news. Cordless
45:54
Home phones are worse than cell phones in terms of their radiation, yes. And most people don’t know that. So buy a corded phone that’s hooked up to a landline and have that be your primary phone.
46:10
Anyway, I talk about all this on those little videos. This kind of stuff is really important. Sometimes when someone doesn’t see it, they don’t think it’s real, which is why energetic medicine and things people have…
46:26
or in your work right people have a hard time unless they can touch it and taste it it’s one of the most difficult things you know about this issue is we’re talking about invisible frequencies you can’t see them you can’t hear them you can’t taste them touch them smell them
46:43
But still, they have a major impact on human functioning. And, you know, just, yeah, part of my job with my background in subtle energy medicine is to educate people about that very… Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well, I want you to know that it’s really important that all of our audience here… Maybe you’ll want to watch this again, because I know it’s going to be on, and like I say, it’s going to…
47:12
Watch it and listen to it and do the research and become part of an educated response. Because when someone comes to you and says, smart meters are fine, it would be nice to have some ammunition and aim them again. Because I think all of us, at many meetings you’ll go, people come because they’re interested in the subject, but then they don’t take it further.
47:42
Take this one further. Maybe it’ll be a good pattern for a lot of things in life. Yeah, talk to your friends. But make this an active issue for you because it’s going to be impacting you. You know, when we’re young, we think we’re strong and we can stand it all.
48:00
As we get older, we see the things that we did 20, 30, 40 years ago and have done for that period of time accumulate, and I wonder why I have that problem. Well, I mean, I don’t know if this is the time to piggyback on even more what you said, but…
48:19
One of the huge concerns is young people. Because you and I didn’t grow up with these radio frequencies at the saturated level that they are now. And we know from the research that there’s a cumulative effect. And so the children, the babies, the children, the young people now who have been born into this and are living with it,
48:48
They’re the real guinea pigs in this whole experiment. And there’s every reason to be really concerned. Really alarmed. Yes, very alarmed. And don’t let your kids use your cell phone.
49:04
Their developmental stages, their system is way more vulnerable. They’ll have plenty of time to interface with these technologies when they get older, but having them play games on your cell phone or on the computer and sitting in front of it, it’s just not good for many, many reasons, but particularly the negative health reasons. Any of the things that you want to be sure that while we’re on, you mentioned? Um…
49:33
We’ve covered a lot there. Yeah, we have. Helping people understand the difference in the research and why the issue is so confused is a big piece. And then knowing that the industry is basically advancing some research that’s flawed, that’s a big thing. And it’s hard to wade through it all because the issue is so Greeneewashed.
50:02
What does Greeneewashed mean? Greeneewashed means that the proponents of the smart grid and smart meters are saying, this is it. This is the best thing since sliced bread. This is going to save us. Environmentally friendly. It’s environmentally friendly, it’s eco-friendly, it’s sustainable, it’s going to make everything more efficient, save energy, all of these things. They’re using all of that terminology to talk about
50:29
this smart grid, smart meter initiative. And so a lot of environmentalists, that’s what we want to hear. I’m an environmentalist. When I first heard about it, I was like, oh, cool, great. And then I started looking into it, and I realized this is not good at all.
50:47
We can’t just pay attention to efficiency at the expense of what? At the expense of our health? What good does it do to have an efficient power system if we’re dying and being sick and everything else? But one of the things that that has done is it’s kind of pitted environmentalists against environmentalists with regard to this issue.
51:14
You know, that’s been one of the hardest things for me is, you know, talking to some of my environmentalist friends and agencies who are behind the issue and saying, look, you guys, please rethink this because it’s not what you think it is. You know, it’s not such a great thing. And there are ways to accomplish, you know, a more efficient system without these kinds of smart meters. Well, I want to thank you for being here.
51:43
Number one, a champion, champion and a leader to step out on something as important as this. And I hope it sets a good example for people out there who see… When you see a wrong, right it. When you see something that is uncomfortable to you, please…
52:05
Reach out and make a difference. And in this issue, I’m just going to go back to it again because I think it’s so important. Share this with people. You know, you may see this show, but you can have others see this show. You can send them to websites and become educated yourself. I think all of us are in an age where, you know, we think that things are happening around us with technology so much that we ourselves don’t have to be involved.
52:35
at one of these meetings who’s going to write a letter that these are people that are absolutely against smart meters we want to see more hands we want to see people expressing themselves because obviously we have politicians who want to get elected that’s one reason to mention it because they need to know how you feel on all kinds of issues but on this one this one’s really personal and
53:04
It’s voluntary now, but, you know, like you said, Kauai had it, but it wasn’t voluntary. And they had to fight to stop that. And, you know, there actually was a failed smart grid project on Oahu a few years ago. It ended in 2010. And, you know, the… What is a failed project?
53:30
Well, they installed 9,400 smart meters on Oahu, and the project didn’t go well. And I actually asked the person who’s in charge of the Maui smart grid what went wrong with that project, but he would not elaborate. So I had to do my own…
53:50
investigation about that and what I read online was that there were communication problems between the meters and the grid and
54:05
millions of dollars of taxpayer money was spent on that failed project. And then HECO, which is the power company on Oahu, wanted to do a second pilot project after that one failed, and the Hawaii Public Utilities Commission denied their request to do a second pilot project.
54:30
When I read that, it made me wonder, well, is that why they now came to Maui? Because they got denied over there? I don’t know the answer to that, but I think it’s a very good question. And so, yeah, there are smart meters on Oahu. And I don’t exactly know what they’re doing now, but they’re over there. Well, I hope that this show has…
54:59
been interesting to you and I know it’s important. I want to thank you all for joining us and to remember Debra Greenee because this kind of work that you do with energy work is really important. The subtleties of energy that’s outside our physical body and understanding, you know, ever meet someone and you just don’t like them,
55:25
Or you do like them. Exactly. The vibe. The vibe. That’s that energy. The eyes and the back of the head. It’s all because of our energy bodies that we have. So very important and very real. And the more you’ll think about it and learn about it, the more you’ll realize how important it is.
55:44
When you were talking about meridians, like acupuncture meridians and things like that, say, can you imagine acupuncture? I’m just going to bring it up in a different subject, but it’s important to realize. Oh, it’s definitely related. Imagine that, how many years ago? 5,000 years ago, however many years ago, acupuncture began, and still we here in Western medicine only use acupuncture in a limited way, and very few health…
56:10
insurance companies cover it, and yet we know it’s effective. Well, here’s another interesting thing now that you mention acupuncture. If we were to look at
56:24
other systems of health and healing that are in existence on the planet aside from conventional western medicine like we have in the u.s we would find that every other approach to health and healing in existence on the planet as far as we know recognizes the primacy and legitimacy of an energy body
56:54
Except for one, and that’s conventional Western medicine does not recognize our energy body. And I have my own theory about maybe why that happened, and I’m thinking it’s probably because conventional Western medicine was largely developed through the study and dissection of cadavers.
57:14
And when you’re working with cadavers, you’re working with dead bodies. The energy body has already separated. But other systems to health and healing, which are based on living biological beings, they very much recognize how important, how utterly essential the energy body is. So we’re starting to…
57:40
incorporate that a little more. Things are changing and that’s good. And it’s because of education like this. That’s right. It’s because we’re talking about it and making it a subject and encouraging you and you encouraging others to take a look at all this. So our bottom line is smart meters ain’t so smart. And we want to help you help others wake up to that subject and we hope that
58:10
If there’s anything that you have, any questions, that you’ll direct them, you’re going to see a couple of addresses, to direct them through email to me or to Debra Greenee. Yeah, check out my book. If you want to learn more about your energy bodies. What’s the name of the book? The book is called Endless Energy, The Essential Guide to Energy Health.
58:33
And it’s a health guide, and we’ll just tell you all about your energy system and how to care for it. It has lots of exercises and activities. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We hope that you will see us again. And make sure that when we end, to get a pencil and paper. In fact, you can be…
58:58
Getting it now, if you already have it. And write down some of these addresses and go check them out. And be sure to go, once again, to StopSmartMetersHawaii.com. And is that where we’re going to see the petition? Yes. Okay. So we want to be sure that you do that and go to all these other websites and make yourself educated so that you have a reason when you tell someone, no, thank you.
59:27
You don’t have to be nasty to them. Maybe educate them. Thank you. Thank you. It’s really a pleasure. Aloha. Aloha.
