Please LIKE, COMMENT, SHARE & SUBSCRIBE… It Really Helps Our Channel.
Dr. Santo Triolo – Novel: “The Psychology of Stupid”-3-31-25 Clinical Psychologist, Certified Forensic Examiner, Deplomate in Assessment Psychology ! WOW ! Excuse my Mispronouncing of your beautiful name : SANTO. TRIOLO. !!
Summary
Dr. Santo Trioli discusses human behavior, ADHD, emotional brain dominance, and his novel “The Psychology of Stupid” promoting self-awareness and change.
Highlights
- Human DNA favors immediate gratification over long-term planning.
- “The Psychology of Stupid” is a self-help novel exposing common human errors.
- Only 20% of the brain handles rational thought; 80% is emotional influence.
- ADHD diagnosis is complex, requiring history, tests, and environmental factors.
- Behavior change is difficult despite cognitive awareness and emotional insight.
- Maui’s community and environment deeply influence personal wellbeing.
- Human progress in technology outpaces advances in social and emotional growth.
Key Insights
- Immediate Gratification Rooted in Evolution: Our ancestors’ survival instincts shaped DNA that prioritizes short-term rewards, explaining many modern impulsive or “stupid” behaviors. Understanding this helps contextualize human actions without judgment.
- Novel as an Educational Tool: Using fiction to discuss psychology, Dr. Trioli makes complex concepts accessible, encouraging readers to reflect on their own behavior and potential for change. This creative approach broadens mental health awareness.
- Brain’s Emotional vs. Rational Divide: With 80% of brain activity driven by emotions and only 20% by rational thought, people often act emotionally rather than logically. Awareness of this imbalance is key to developing better self-control and decision-making.
- ADHD Diagnosis Nuances: Differentiating ADHD from normal distraction involves detailed history, standardized testing, and environmental context. This process ensures accurate diagnosis and personalized treatment, emphasizing the importance of professional evaluation.
- Challenges of Behavior Change: Even with insight and understanding, altering habits is difficult due to the strong influence of emotional brain pathways and ingrained patterns, highlighting the need for ongoing practice and environmental support.
- Influence of Environment on Wellbeing: Dr. Trioli emphasizes how supportive relationships and community contexts, like those found in Maui or Sicily, significantly affect mental health and coping strategies, underscoring the social dimension of psychological wellness.
- Human vs. Technological Progress: While technology has advanced rapidly, human emotional and social development lags behind, suggesting a critical need to focus on “human engineering” to foster empathy, cooperation, and collective growth.
Core Points
- [00:09 → 07:47] Introduction and Concept of “The Psychology of Stupid”
- The host Jason Schwarz welcomes Dr. Santo Trioli, a clinical psychologist with decades of experience, to discuss human behavior and psychology.
- Dr. Trioli introduces his novel “The Psychology of Stupid,” a fictional but educational work designed to help people understand human irrationality and poor decision-making.
- The book addresses the innate human tendency toward immediate gratification, rooted in our evolutionary past where survival was short-term focused.
- Dr. Trioli emphasizes that most harmful behaviors come not from evil but from stupidity—people acting without foresight or understanding of consequences.
- The book aims to empower readers to recognize these tendencies and to override them using their cognitive abilities.
- [07:47 → 13:33] Brain Function, Emotions, and Reasoning
- Dr. Trioli explains the neurological basis of human behavior, focusing on the prefrontal lobes, which constitute about 20% of the brain and handle reasoning, planning, and emotional regulation.
- The remaining 80% of the brain is largely emotional and less rational, which explains why people often act on impulse rather than logic.
- He notes that neural pathways are one-way, and signals from the emotional parts of the brain overpower those from the rational prefrontal cortex, leading to impulsive behaviors.
- The concept is linked to common human traits such as envy and greed, which do not require formal education to appear—they are innate emotional responses.
- Dr. Trioli discusses the challenge of synthesizing emotional impulses with rational thought to improve behavior and decision-making.
- [13:33 → 19:57] ADHD Diagnosis and Management
- Dr. Trioli authored a specialized textbook on ADHD aimed at clinicians, focusing on proper diagnosis and treatment through medication and cognitive interventions.
- He developed a standardized instrument to differentiate ADHD from normal distractibility, emphasizing that everyone experiences lapses in attention, but clinical ADHD significantly impairs life functioning.
- Diagnosis involves comprehensive history-taking, standardized questionnaires, and practical cognitive exercises to test attention and distractibility.
- Treatment strategies include modifying environments, exemplified by a patient whose supportive spouse managed details allowing him to succeed in his job despite ADHD.
- ADHD is recognized as a spectrum disorder with chemical and neurological bases, requiring individualized treatment approaches.
- [19:57 → 27:40] Personal Journey, Community, and Social Issues
- Dr. Trioli shares his personal journey, including caregiving for his parents and moving to Maui, which he describes as culturally and environmentally similar to Sicily.
- He praises the strong sense of community and extended family (“ohana”) on the island, akin to close-knit Sicilian traditions.
- Discussion touches on societal challenges such as homelessness, environmental toxins, and political tensions, with emphasis on maintaining hope and self-respect despite adversity.
- Dr. Trioli stresses the importance of dialogue and finding common ground to overcome societal divisions and challenges.
[27:40 → 43:06] The Gap Between Technological and Human Progress
- Dr. Trioli highlights the rapid technological advances humans have achieved, such as space travel within a single lifetime, contrasting this with the stagnant progress in human emotional and social development.
- Despite enormous intellectual achievements, human beings still struggle with jealousy, greed, and unresolved emotional conflicts.
- The book aims to preserve and propagate insights into human nature, encouraging readers to exercise their prefrontal cortex to resist emotional impulsivity.
- This disparity between mechanical advancement and “human engineering” is a core concern of Dr. Trioli’s work.
- [43:06 → 54:23] Social Behavior, Obedience, and Personal Boundaries
- Discussion covers the psychological concept of obedience to authority and conformity, referencing historical experiments (e.g., Milgram experiment) demonstrating how people follow orders even when unethical.
- Dr. Trioli notes that overcoming this obedience requires conscious effort to override genetic predispositions toward compliance.
- He advocates for maintaining personal boundaries by surrounding oneself with honest, decent people and avoiding toxic relationships.
- The interview touches on the complexity of human relationships, such as victims who continue to love abusive partners, emphasizing the need to separate emotions from safety considerations.
- Behavioral change is difficult but achievable with environmental adjustments and persistent practice.
- [54:23 → 55:59] Closing Remarks and Audience Engagement
- The host concludes by thanking Dr. Trioli and mentions upcoming guests related to mental health awareness.
- Dr. Trioli shares his hope that his book will outlive him and continue to provide value to readers.
- The discussion invites the public to reflect on the distinction between intelligence and wisdom and encourages exercising rational thinking to improve life outcomes.
Key Conclusions
- [07:47 → 10:54] Human behavior is dominated by emotional impulses (80%) rather than rational thought (20%), which explains why people often act “stupidly” even when they know better.
- [15:06 → 17:50] Accurate diagnosis of ADHD requires a thorough history, standardized testing, and behavioral observation; it is a complex process that distinguishes normal distraction from clinical impairment.
- [27:40 → 43:06] Technological advancements have outpaced emotional and social progress, creating a paradox where humanity can achieve great feats but still struggles with basic interpersonal and intrapersonal issues.
- [50:46 → 52:49] Obedience to authority and conformity are universal human traits, not confined to any culture or nationality, and breaking free requires conscious resistance and moral courage.
- [31:50 → 32:55] Behavior change is the greatest challenge in psychology; understanding emotions and cognition is easier than translating that understanding into new, healthier habits.
- [45:18 → 47:36] Environmental factors and supportive relationships can significantly improve outcomes for individuals with mental health challenges such as ADHD or trauma.
- [27:40 → 28:39] Consumer manipulation through advertising exploits human emotional weakness, demonstrating the importance of critical thinking and mindful decision-making.
Important Details
- [00:09 → 01:27] The show “The Neutral Zone” aims to foster civil conversation and common ground despite differing viewpoints, reflecting the host’s philosophy on communication.
[05:00 → 06:38] Our evolutionary past shaped a brain wired for immediate gratification and survival, making long-term planning counterintuitive and difficult.- [09:07 → 10:17] The prefrontal lobes are responsible for higher-level thinking such as planning, reasoning, and emotional regulation but are overwhelmed by the more dominant emotional brain.
- [13:33 → 14:36] Dr. Trioli’s ADHD textbook is a clinician’s resource, while his novel targets the general public to increase awareness of psychological issues in accessible language.
- [16:08 → 17:17] Distractibility is universal, but clinical ADHD is measured by the degree to which it impairs life functioning and goal achievement.
- [17:50 → 18:48] A practical example of managing ADHD involves environmental structuring and complementary relationships, such as a spouse managing organizational tasks.
- [20:32 → 23:03] Dr. Trioli developed and validated a standardized ADHD diagnostic instrument over nine years, collaborating with experts like Dr. Kevin Murphy.
- [24:53 → 26:00] Personal caregiving responsibility led Dr. Trioli to relocate to Maui, where he found cultural and environmental similarities to his Sicilian heritage.
- [36:03 → 36:34] The concept of “ohana” extends beyond blood relations to include chosen family or community, reflecting values of connection and support.
- [28:05 → 29:09] Advertisers use psychological tricks like scarcity and celebrity endorsement to pressure consumers into impulsive purchases.
- [40:38 → 41:57] The rapid technological advances from early flight to moon landing in less than a lifetime highlight human ingenuity but contrast with stagnant social maturity.
- [47:03 → 48:07] Behavioral change requires persistence despite setbacks; even small improvements in safety and awareness can be significant progress.
- [48:35 → 49:08] Separating love from safety is crucial for survivors of abuse, enabling them to maintain emotional attachments while protecting their wellbeing.
- [50:15 → 51:47] Milgram’s obedience experiments revealed that people often comply with authority even when it conflicts with personal ethics, emphasizing the need for awareness and resistance.
- [54:23 → 54:58] Dr. Trioli’s hope is that his book serves as a lasting resource for readers seeking to understand and improve human behavior beyond his own lifespan.
This detailed synthesis captures the essence of the conversation, providing insights into human psychology, ADHD, social behavior, and the ongoing challenges of balancing emotion and cognition.
Transcript
00:09
Wow, that was beautiful. Thanks, Susie. You’ve got such a beautiful voice. Aloha, everyone! Welcome to the neutral zone. It’s Monday, 11 a.m. here in Hawaii. We’re really lucky to be here in Maui. I’m your host, Jason Schwarz. For those of you watching online or maybe just chilling at home, we’re on Akaku Maui Community Media TV channel 55 on cable. We’re also on KAKU 88.5 FM, the voice of Maui—not to be confused with the talk of Maui. We’re the voice of Maui, and we’re really…
00:50
Independent, as you’ll notice from our unique programming. This show’s called The Neutral Zone, with the tagline It’s Anything But Neutral by Design, because I believe if we all just sit down and talk, we can figure things out and find common ground. The other stuff can just fade away unless it’s something really important. And there shouldn’t be anything that serious, because like we say, it’s all minor stuff, right? No need to stress. I’ve got a really interesting guest on the show today, someone many of you on this island know.
01:27
Actually, Dr. Santo Trioli is a doctor—many people know him as a counselor, a mental health counselor for both adults and kids. That’s right, both. Feel free to jump in if you want. Yeah, I’m a clinical psychologist and I’ve been in private practice for many years, going back to around 1985. I’ve been on the island since 2011. When I first got here, I worked for the Department of Health as the clinical psychologist for CAMD for about two years.
02:02
Sure. I worked there for about two and a half years. They hired me as a clinical psychologist for CAMMD, and they also asked me to be the acting clinical director during that time. But eventually, I went back into private practice, and I’m happy doing that. Well, I’m…
02:35
Glad to have you on my show. I know I say “my show,” but really, this is your show. If you have topics or people you think are interesting or need to be talked about—good or bad—we bring on cool guests. If you look back at past shows, you’ll see all kinds of people: some you might know from politics, some from art, music, environment, energy, and the arts.
03:06
“The arts is psychology.” I have to tell you, when I read your book, I thought of “The Psychology of Stupid” by Santo Trioli—that just popped into my head a few minutes ago. And on the cover—I’m not sure if you guys can see it—can you get this on Amazon, or do I have to order it somewhere else? Anyway, it’s called *The Psychology of Stupid*. As I was flipping through the index, maybe you can explain it better to me. There’s a chapter called “Blind Man Running a Radio Thing”—what’s that about? Those are all chapter titles.
03:46
Titles. The stubborn ego, subconscious messages, the confrontation. Sounds like psychology, but it’s actually a novel. How does that all fit together? The rubber band theory of the socioeconomic spectrum. I bet. Is it funny? Is it someone’s story? Yeah, it’s a novel, meaning it’s fiction, but it’s set in a classroom where a professor discusses different topics, and the class is talking about contemporary issues.
04:22
Psychology aside, the goal here is to talk about real-life stuff happening in the world that’s basically dumb. Hopefully, the novel can teach people enough that they might be able to make some changes in their lives. When I say dumb, I mean all of us—we’re all in the same boat. Our DNA kind of sets us up to do things that don’t really work for us anymore. Let me give you an example…
05:00
For example, our DNA is wired for instant rewards, not long-term benefits. So, when something’s bothering us, we’re naturally inclined to seek relief right away. Some people might turn to alcohol, others to different drugs, or do things that end up harming them down the line. This all goes back to our ancient past. Back in the day, you know…
05:34
Back in caveman times, right? We were pretty low on the food chain. We couldn’t see as well as other animals, didn’t hear or smell as sharp, and we definitely couldn’t run as fast. We only had two legs. So, most mornings, you might wake up and not make it to sunset because some animal might eat you. At that point, we weren’t thinking about long-term goals—we were just focused on finding food.
06:06
You just eat it. You know, when something’s right in front of you, you go for it. Thinking about long-term goals isn’t really in our nature. That’s how our ancestors were. So, what we see in our communities is people choosing quick fixes instead of putting in the effort to understand the long-term consequences. It’s just not how we’re wired. That’s one example. Makes sense, right? It’s a good example, but it’s a big one.
06:38
You’re just whitewashing like that’s what you’re doing here—taking different bits of nonsense and looking them over. Yeah, yeah. So, basically, where it came from was an interview I did a long time ago with a woman, and this was after the Sandy Hook massacre. Actually, I don’t know if you remember, this was the first time first graders and kindergartners were killed. She came to me with this idea—this is it. Now we’re going to turn the page, now we’re really going to move on.
07:14
The difference is, this is as much as our community, our society, can handle. I just shook my head and said, I don’t think so. We’re still gonna keep seeing these problems and issues. Then she asked me, “Do you believe in evil? Is there evil in the world?” I said, well, I can’t totally rule it out, but most of the time, people just mess up because they’re dumb. It’s not evil—they just do dumb stuff. So, yeah.
07:47
That was just the start. It sparked me to think about different parts of human life, with the book being the end result. It’s interesting. That was, um, a clinical definition. You wrote it so people could really connect with it personally, right? Kind of like a self-help novel? Is that how you’d describe it? I’d say it’s a self-help… uh, what do you call it? Like an exposé journal from someone who’s talked to a lot of different people over time. Yeah.
08:30
And it really comes down to oversight. No, it’s not stupid. You’ve got to really put some thought into it. Do you wrap up the story at the end? Does our hero come to any conclusions, or do you leave that for the readers to figure out? The important thing here is that you’re not doomed. Even though we sometimes act foolishly, we also have the ability to overcome that. And that’s a pretty important point.
09:07
When I’m doing this on the radio, I can just say it, and people can picture it. When I give a lecture or something, I ask people to put their hand over their camera. Some ask, “Where exactly?” I say, “Over your forehead, with your thumb right there.” Right behind your hand is what we call the prefrontal lobe. Okay, the prefrontal lobe is responsible for—okay, you can take your hand down now—it’s in charge of your thinking, your…
09:41
Processing, your logical thinking—that’s the part of your brain that plans ahead, does the math, looks at long-term consequences, analyzes stuff, and all that. But here’s the thing: that part only makes up about 20%. The other 80%? Totally nuts. So, does that mean it’s useless? No way. It actually has incredible value. The key point is that this 20% is really in charge.
10:17
It’s all about how you handle your emotions, how you picture your feelings, and so on. And here’s the kicker—if you break it down neurologically, the wiring in our brain is totally one-way. Like, a neuron fires from point A to point B, but never the other way around. If you want signals going back, you need a different neuron for that. So yeah, these systems are one-way streets. Most of our body works like that, you know?
10:54
11:28
come up with a more rational conclusion. You see what I’m saying? Does it make I think Well, it’s really interesting that uh you say it’s because of the way we’re built, right? That the emotional 80%, you know, that we always heard everybody with their principles about the 8020 rule. 20% of your people are going to do 80% of So you’re telling me it’s because we really only have 20% of a brain. It just so happens those numbers. No, no, you have 100% of the brain, right? 20%
11:57
of it is able to do deduct. So when someone says, “Oh, you only use 10% of your brain. You could use more. You could use 100. Imagine.” But you say, “Hey, stop at 20. That’s all you got. The other 80 is uh food.” Yeah. Another example. What is the 80? I don’t really understand. It’s just emotion. It’s pure out pure emotions. It’s pure out to the prefrontal lobe and that’s it. Right. So, I’ll give you an example. It makes more sense in terms of instead of
12:23
neurology. Um, have you heard of the seven deadly sins? Yeah, everybody has, right? Sure. So, I’m not sure if I can follow them. There’s sloth and there’s, you know, um, greed and you you know what what they are and so forth. Well, do you have to go to school to learn about being greedy? Do you have to go to school? Do you have to read a chapter in a book to understand what it means to be envious? No. It just happens naturally. It’s a natural thing that we humans have that we’re envious and so forth. Okay. So,
12:57
that’s what I’m talking about that 80% that emotional wrappings and so forth. Does it make sense? I do. But, you know, in my life as I’ve lived, I’ve it’s not harness it. It’s more like find out how it can synthesize into the my active 20% my emotional u whatever that is you know it comes out in many ways people are shy they’re over the top all kinds of ways I don’t know how you describe it there places in the prefrontal that trigger different kinds of things too you’re a
13:33
specialist about ADHD you mentioned that’s correct you wrote a book a textbook book. Tell me about that. Okay, so that book is designed for practitioners. It’s it’s more statistically based and so forth. It’s not for the general public. This one that I just wrote recently that you know the psychology of stupid that’s more for the general public like in the computer world. This is called uh you know what’s that series? Ice cream cone eating for dummies. That’s not quite ice cream cone eating
14:04
for dummies. Anyways, yeah. So, right. That’s it. This is nice to me. This means user friendly manual, right? So the ADHD the ADHD book is ma mainly a textbook and it’s used for practitioners so they can make a proper diagnosis and then the proper treatment that goes with it whether it’s either medication or um cognitive functioning and so forth and so on. What was the last one? What kind of functioning? Cognitive functioning. Oh whether it’s cognitive functioning. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I didn’t hear. No,
14:36
that’s all right. Thinking. So, that’s an interesting question. Um, how quick can you make a diagnosis? You’ve been sitting with me a few minutes. No, this is not counting. When I’m all over the map, you don’t go, “Oh, look at another patient.” Yeah. The diagnosis is a process and includes three things. Okay. So, one of them, if you would come to me, um, I would take a good history as to what’s been going on with you, everything that’s gone on in your life growing up, dealing with
15:06
teachers, you know, what kind of classrooms you’ve had and so forth and so on. So, history can provide a lot of interesting, you know, information as to how people are navigating through life. Okay, so that’s that’s the number one thing which I think is kind of important. Then the second thing that I do is and I invented this this instrument for adults is a standardized measure to help differentiate people who are ADHD from people who are not ADHD. Now this is important. This is extremely
15:35
important and most doctors don’t do that. They don’t use the instrument appropriately. They don’t have the standardized measure. Now you know what I mean by standardized. Sure I do. Okay. Okay. uh in my understanding over time the standard changes based on I don’t know 100,000 of the most recent and so it can adjust but in our society now you can measure when someone is correct is it a chemical thing or is it questions or yeah it’s it’s a question things it’s a combination of two things number one
16:08
is a there’s a questionnaire that fulfills that kind of differentiation and then number two um there’s an exercise that you do. So, if you come into my office, um I would try to distract you on purpose, no offense, to see how well you can manage this and you can navigate through that. Okay. Now, here’s the important thing. If I go down the street and I ask people, “Have you ever lost focus? Have you ever forgotten your keys? Have you ever listened to a lecture and your mind sort of drifted
16:40
off or your daydream?” The answer is yes. It’s happened. Okay? So the real question is not whether these symptoms exist. The real question is how much. Get it? In other words, is it so destructive that it’s destructive? Yeah. It it impedes your progress. It, you know, keeps you from fulfilling your goals. It causes problems with your, I don’t know, your job or your spouse or whatever. Okay. Does that make sense? Are they they’re measurable? I mean, when someone has those kind of issues, right, they’re
17:17
measurable by things that are out of your control. So, you just you’re a path, you’re uh you help them find the the path and the right things to do mostly. Yeah. And also, you you look at what the environment is like. Okay. So, I had a patient years ago, wonderful guy, great guy. And uh he was very funny, too. He would like he goes, “I can’t sit behind a desk. That’s crazy, man.” and his job was to go out with his truck and he would cut down trees and you know get fireward and so forth and so on. His
17:50
wife and I gave him credit for this. He says you found the perfect woman for this for your job and for your your ailment. His wife was into details. She enjoyed details. So she did all of the paperwork. She did all of the finances. She did all of the, you know, setting up the the, you know, the uh the itinerary for the day. And in fact, he had um I don’t know if they still have it or not. There’s like a suction cup thing that you put on on the dash in your windshield and then you you can write
18:21
notes on it and so forth. Do you remember that? I’ve seen on the internet you see new variations of all whatever. Anyways, yeah, it’s like having a notepad with you. Now they have cell phones. Now they have cells and so forth. So she would set that up, okay? Told them, “Get in the truck, take off that. This is your assignment. Don’t come back until the end of the list is finished.” You know, that kind of stuff. But she was she’s a loving human being. Really loving human being. It was a
18:48
wonderful, you know, sort of connection between the two of them. So the environment actually made the big difference for him in terms of how he navigates through life. I left him alone. There’s no need for treatment. His best treatment was his wife. I gave a lecture one time and I this is for a school and we’re talking about children that have ADHD and so forth, right? And I told the people there, I said, “I can solve ADHD problems or at least at the 50% life who just snap of a fingers. All you have to do is hire a
19:23
private secretary for these kids and they got it made in a shade.” Make sense? Yeah. Okay. So, is ADHD a real thing? Yes, it is. Is it chemically based? Yeah, it is chemically based. Some people have a disposition where they’re, you know, um they do fairly well and other people not so much. But there’s a spectrum here. And at what point do you reach a point where it really interferes with your life? It makes a difference, where you don’t reach your potential, where your goals are not met, and so forth and so
19:57
on. When that happens, that’s where the clinical component comes in and that’s where I come in in terms of providing whatever treatment is necessary. I’ve had a couple of friends uh one specifically a young lady who was 50s who in her 40s was told she had ADHD and took some kind of a chemical treatment to change something and it’s really helped her a lot. And I’ve heard other people try to deal with it in natural ways and all kinds of ways. So it’s not a one-sizefits-all solution, I’m sure.
20:32
Right. No, it’s not. Right. But you’re thinking that most people does it take a little time to talk them to a point where they are more aware of like you said a private secretary. You know what that means? You could tell him it’s this guy’s running so quick. He just needs something to shut down what he’s doing. So, as I’m an adult with all this, who evaluates ADHD? A teacher, a mother and a father? Clinician, a licensed clinician is the one that So, you generally getting referrals. Do you
21:04
have mostly kids, mostly adults? I have both. I have a mixture of both because I, you know, I have a reputation with kids first and then with adults. Actually, how I wrote the book and how I wrote the the instrument, not this book, the the one with stupid. Yeah. Yeah. um came from a study that I did way back when it’s 1988 and what we did was we looked at two uh medications one was sil which don’t we don’t use anymore it’s peeroline what’s used and the other one was rolin that everybody knows and then
21:36
we had a control group it was a double blind study so when we got done with the the statistics the analysis and so forth we broke the code because it was a double blind study and we told the parents parents, you know, what group they were in, um, what your kid was getting and what are some of the things that we would recommend and so forth. And as we talked about the kid, I would see the the wife would sort of look at her husband and say and point to him and go like, I think that’s him. I think
22:06
that’s my husband. And there is there is a a tendency for men to have ADHD over women, although that’s really debatable and that that goes into another category altogether. Um, but even the guys would say, you know, you you’re describing my kid, but you’re actually describing me 25 years ago. You know, that that was me and so forth. And then they asked me, they said, “Well, can I take these tests, too?” And I said, “No, you can’t. This is this is norm for children.” He
22:34
said, “Well, if you come up with something, you know, I’ll be happy to help.” And that’s how it all started. So I you know it took me I didn’t realize how long it was going to take to get the norms but it took me nine years to you go around the country and you know get the proper norms and so forth and then um I had to validate the norms because you know that’s my baby and validation means that you know you need to find somebody outside to say hey you know what Dr. it’s worth it. You know, go ahead and
23:03
publish it and that kind of thing, right? And um it took me a while to find somebody that would be willing to do that. And my partner and now my big big friend is uh Kevin Murphy, Dr. uh Kevin Murphy from the University of Massachusetts. Um great little story I got to tell you. Hope you don’t mind. I don’t mind at all. Okay. Um, after going to about three or four different doctors to try to, you know, normalize it, especially people that working at the university setting, I was led to Dr.
23:35
Murphy and he accommodated me. He said, “Fine, I’ll do it.” We, you know, we used a lot of his patients and so forth to validate it and he came out with the, you know, the good results. Years later, I found out that he had skin cancer. and the doctors gave him just a few months to live. He was stage four and um he had all the reason in the world to reject me, but he didn’t and I’m happy to say he’s still alive. He’s doing really really well. Great story. Yeah. So he’s Yeah, it’s a good story.
24:12
So he’s he’s special in my heart for many many reasons. Um so what a that’s a beautiful story. So, I just You’ve been on M. How’d you pick Maui? Maui picked me. Yeah. So, I had a practice in Columbus, Georgia. Oh. Uh for many years and my mother died unexpectedly. And uh speaking of cancer, she died of cancer. My father who was the sickler of the two who had congestive heart failure, diabetes, he was on dialysis and so forth. He was alive. He stayed he stayed alive and the doctor said he can’t stay by himself
24:53
because my mom was taking care of him. Oh. And he refused to leave the home. I mean he was a classic Italian. How would I describe it? Um Frank Sinatra is the best example I can give you. Except Frank Sinatra was a fake. him. He was just an actor. This guy was real. At any rate, he just refused. He says, “I want to die. Just let me die. Just I want to stay right here.” So, um, of all my sibling, I was all my siblings, I was able to, you know, financially leave my practice and take care of them. So, for about two and
25:27
a half years, maybe a little bit more than that, I took care of them. And then, you know, I was a free agent and I applied to different places. And there’s a there’s another book that I wrote on my kid on my kid who um leaned me towards Hawaii. Um and I was willing to take any job that anybody would hire me at that point. At that point, I was kind of running out of money and so forth. I got a home equity loan. That kind of you know the business, right? Sure. Anyways, um I got invited by the Department of
26:00
Health and um the rest is history. Well, you know that there’s a guy he may you know Lauren Pang from over here. Of course, he’s been a guest here. In fact, he is one of the very most I call him diplomatic. They don’t like to invite him to public forums because he he puts it right to them. He just puts his facts out. Uh to me, that’s the hammer. It’s not that he’s really trying to, you know, put a whip out, but when you put out the truth, I I I do really like him. He’s that whole thing with the
26:39
West Side and all the toxins. And now everyone’s moving back to their lands in in Los Angeles. Let them back on their lands and they’re going to end up like we’ve seen it happen all around the world, these toxic situations and here. And how do you deal with all these things? People come in and talk about, “Oh, the world. Trump’s coming in. I don’t know how I’m going to pay this. What’s going to happen to this? My prices are going up.” Or do they come in and say, “I’ve learned so much from you.
27:10
I’m going to relax because this may be the point where we start to love each other like like you thought years ago.” Right. Right. Are we fooling ourselves or are we gonna Once again, what is it? What is it? When you pour something If it looks like it’s going over the hill, it could go over the hill. Jacqu Kustoau thought it was too late. He stopped. He said, “I had all that I could take. We’re I’m out of here.” Do you still think we have a chance our world? There’s always a hope.
27:40
There’s always a hope. I mean, we still have a you know, the frontal loes, right? So, as long as we exercise it and that’s one of the reasons why I wrote the book because hopefully the book will out I’m not hopefully it will outlast me. I’m going to be long gone pretty soon, right? So maybe there’s something in the archives there that people can pick up. And it’s not just a self-help. It’s just a it’s a it’s a an analysis of trying to be aware of what’s going on.
28:05
So one of the chapters in there deals with commercials. What do commercials do? You know, how do they try to fool you out of your money? You know, what are some of the things? What are the tactics that they use? Oh, You know, why should I buy a car because my favorite actor is on television telling me this is a great car? That’s right. Right. My butt fits good in this seat. That’s right. Yeah. So, you know, you have these special techniques that people use and um it’s really interesting that they’re very easily
28:39
fooled. Like for instance, you know, this is the last weekend, you know, come and get or you know, it’s not going to last forever, blah, blah, blah. That kind of stuff. And what they’re trying to do is put some tension inside of you so that you can make the decision right away to spend. You only have 38 minutes until you can make a decision then this price is going away and it’s 90% less than we normally charge. Oh yes, we do make up the numbers all here. We are just is outrageous. Someone told me
29:09
they someone mentioned something and there was and he swore that it was this actor or it was Robert Kennedy. He swore it was Robert Kennedy talking about um healthy things and he bought pills and they charged him thousands of dollars. Oh, I feel out of touch with like the real are most people feeling out of touch with real relationships? It’s just that they can get sucked into these type of things. So if if you exercise that frontal lobe, like there’s a chapter in there. It’s called um it’s a spoof and
29:44
it’s called um I’m thinking the uh life insurance for nuclear um thermal annihilation. So if you if you happen to be in thermonuclear annihilation, they’re going to pay out. Good for you. So this is going to be a fun book to read. I look forward to it. you know. Yeah. The holy trinity of psychology. You have the holy trinity. Yeah. So there’s basically I’m a psychologist. You took years and years to get the degree and everything, but basically it boils down to three things. That’s it.
30:18
So one of them is emotions. And people come to me because of panic attacks or anxiety or depression, whatever. They’re emotions, right? So that’s that’s one of the three. The other one is what we’re talking about right now is cognition, thinking. being able to get a perspective of what’s going on, you know, understanding, having insights and what have you. And the third is behaviors. And most people do very, very well understanding their emotions cognitively, understanding the insights,
30:49
getting the insights, but translating that into actual behaviors, that’s a toughy. That’s a real toughy. So, so how many people do you know like for instance, you know, my doctor told me that my cholesterol is too high. I need to change my diet. I need to do this and that and they know it’s not that they’re not stupid, but behavior-wise, you have all of these habits that you have. That’s your 80 again. That’s not just ADHD. No, no, it’s just it’s part of our DNA. No,
31:20
I meant the 80 with the the brain. It’s like 80 with the primary. You’re being emotional. you’re being emotional and you’re overriding that wisdom you just gained. And it’s not just emotions. It’s just a a natural tendency to go with what you’ve been doing for years and years as opposed to like my father for example um when he was first diagnosed as having diabetes and I came I was working as a in a clinic. This is pre-doal before I became a doctor. So it was a pre-docal internship and stuff.
31:50
So, I had all these pamphlets and I showed up, you know, and I try to tell him about, you know, your diet and everything else. And when I got to the point where you have to stop eating pasta, which is turns into sugar, he looks at me, say, “I rather just die.” He says, you know, I’m Italian. I got to have my pasta and so forth. And it was really hard to get him to chase. The poor guy was really suffering in that regard. And so, finally, how I got to him, I said, you know, you’re not going
32:17
to die all at once, Dad. you know, they’re going to like you might go blind or they might have to cut off your legs. You know, it’s just piece by piece and eventually after 10, 15 years or whatever, you might die. But it’s not going to be pleasant. It’s going to be a very hurtful experience. And that was a sobering component that changed him. He did well. I mean, he he lived um 20ome years with diabetes, more than that actually. So, diabetes isn’t a na necessarily a natural condition at all. Right.
32:55
Well, you I’m not the expert on this. So, you know, I’m not a medical doctor, so I don’t know about that. Yeah. That’s Yeah. Me, I’m the no doctor, so I can say anything. Yeah. But I will tell you, it runs in my family. Okay. But I went to Sicily and um everyone eats pasta. Well, not only do they eat pasta, but they’re they’re just they’re running around. They’re doing things. You know, I I had a couple of cousins that lived into their 90s, and they were farming up
33:25
until their 90s. That’s incredible. That’s absolutely incredible. Neither one of them could drive. They didn’t have a car. When I was a little boy and I went to my mother’s village in in Sicily, the only car that was available was a doctor’s car, you know, and he just made the rounds from different villages and so forth. So, everybody had donkeys. and so forth. So there was there was exercise that you know intervened here and the environment forced you to eat sugars or eat starch
33:54
or whatever to keep up to, you know, to have the energy that you need. Well, you know, here in the United States, people take their car to the driveway to to pick up the mail and sit at their desk and sit come home and they drive to the mail. That’s right. So there’s a there’s there’s a component of how the environment is and how it treats you as well. So my father was a diabetic. His mother was a diabetic. There’s a lady in Sicily right now who’s 101 years old. She’s my second cousin. I think second
34:25
or third cousin, I’m not sure. And um you know, as far as I’ve known her, she was a diabetic. I don’t remember when she started. And she was insulin dependent and so forth, but 101 years old. So when we stayed to to live with her, she woke up before everybody else. She went to her backyard, which was a beautiful garden and so forth. Picked up, you know, all the berries and fresh vegetables and so forth, washed them clean and everything. And by the time we were up, you know, she had a nice little
34:55
bowl for everybody to eat, you know, and that was his breakfast. That was her breakfast as well. Kind of neat, you know. It’s a neat way to Yeah. I have a friend that moved to with a gal to Portugal and just it seems that other countries and the the different temperament and country area in Italy I have another couple Maui people you know that moved there and don’t want to come back. It’s just too beautiful. Well, you know what? Maui reminds me of Sicily in a lot of ways. Really? Yeah, it does. It
35:29
does. Um just there’s so many people here who are in tune to nature. They’re more in tune in the mainland. Uh and I really appreciate that. There are a lot of people here who really respect each other. Um I love the term family. Ohana. It goes more than just the blood. It’s the connection that you make. And um Sicily is the same way. There’s this thing called kady. And the complity means like for instance if I have a child and you want to bapt and I want you to baptize that child that means
36:03
that we’re connected. We may not be connected via blood but we’re family already. You see what I’m saying? Yes. You’ve heard of the term called anostra right? Sure. Our thing our thing means that it belongs to us. You know it’s us and it’s a special kind of community that I really enjoy. And you know I I don’t go there very often. I wish I could, but but when I do go, you know, it’s like, you know, open arms and it’s kind of beautiful. It’s kind of Yeah. And and I’m part of that culture. I’m
36:34
part of that, you know, process. We got plenty of time. I You guys out there been listening and watching know that sometimes at the end of the show, they start a little late or younger with the timing and I can’t see very well. When I look up and I see three, it could be that’s an eight. Or I could look up and see an eight and it’s a three. But I think I’m doing good. I know exactly where to go to get it right. So, I’m good. Um, so when I think about this, you want to pick a chapter and share it in some
37:09
special way. I want to give you some time and floor so that you can share something that you feel is really specifically important and might give these guys an entree into you. Do you want to give any uh web address or any kind of stuff like that? Um I can give my my telephone number. They can reach me through telephone numbers. I guess you could do that, but I’m just saying on because it’s going to be on radio. It’s not going to be on the TV. But if you had a do you have a web address or
37:37
anything like that for? I do have it. Dr. Watson basically would answer that question better than me because he’s the one that you know put it together and so forth. Okay. You know that’s a really you Dr. Watson I think I shared with you I thought of Sherlock Holmes. You guys Dr. Graham Watson came and talked to Susie here. Susie is here in the front. Beautiful lady who listened and heard about Dr. Santo Trioli and that’s and then when I didn’t hear back and I thought you know I haven’t scheduled Monday yet let me
38:15
call him and I got you directly. I’m so glad you were able to come on short notice. I know I haven’t read the book but that’s yet because I’m going to enjoy reading it. Okay. So um chapter one, let’s just do it the chapter one. Sure. Where um I talk about the difference between intelligence and wisdom. Okay. So, if you don’t mind me reading it. No, please. With intelligence, you can build skyscrapers, computers, bridges, solve complex mathematical problems, and make new medications. With
38:51
wisdom, you can enjoy humor, maintain a loving heart, shed away the approaching stench of old age, listen to the symphonies of life, and dance with the universe. Make sense? Yeah. I thought it was chapter one or was it just That was chapter one. Okay. So, does it make sense? Well, you know, I think that it’s beautiful because it gives people room to uh to put themselves into it, you know, like when when you’re using pros like that, Dancing with the Universe. Do you have a clientele? I you always wonder who’s
39:33
going to be most interested in picking this up? Someone that’s interested in just having fun as funny. Someone that’s interested in more textbook self enjoyment. Do you have a of Do you have a picture of your audience? I I think the general public is the picture that I have of my audience. I think that um you know um people that you were talking about what’s going on with this country and how things are going with the administration and so forth and there’s a lot of despair. There’s a lot
40:04
of not just anger but lost hope and so forth. You know um I have someone that came to me of course I’m not going to mention any names but you know she went overboard. She said you know they’re they’re going to take away my vote because you know they hate women. you know, the everything about this guy is against women. And I didn’t have the heart to tell her they’re gonna take my vote, too. It doesn’t matter. So, um, anyways, um, I’m going to try just give you one more thing. It says it’s chapter two,
40:38
taking humanity to the moon. And I I I don’t have to read it. I can just basically tell you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I want you to think about this. Uh child Lindberg went across, you know who he is, right? He he um was the first solo flight across the Atlantic, became famous and so forth. You guys know Charles Lindberg, right? Right. So when he came back, one of the first things he did was to go to Ohio and meet up with um Wilbur Wright, one of the Wright brothers. By that time, his brother had died. and he
41:14
wanted to praise him for what he did because that you know catapulted him to do what he did. And so fast forward to 1969, we had um what’s what’s his name? Armstrong who was going to be on the moon. Neil Armstrong. Neil Armstrong. That’s right. And so Charles Lindberg was invited to the launching of Apollo 11. Now think about this. Think about the technology involved. We went from mechanized flight in like 1902 to sending a man to the moon and back 1969. That’s less than a lifetime.
41:57
Yes, it is right in that time period. Okay. And even beyond that, like the phone that you have in front of you, the mechanisms that inside that little phone is far more sophisticated than anything that they had in that module going to the moon. So when it comes to chemical engineering, when it comes to mechanical engineering and so forth, we really do a fantastic job. But when it comes to human engineering, people are still jealous of other people. People are still greedy. People are still crying over things that
42:34
you know people have done to them years and years and years ago. The human engineering part has not advanced. And I think that’s an important thing. That’s one of the things that I point out in the book that we have the technology. We’ve done the technology of things that are not human. We’ve advanced so much so so much. But when it comes to the human being, we haven’t advanced that much. And of course, like I said, you know, I can’t live forever. So, one of the motivations for the for the text, for
43:06
the book, is to just outlive me. And hopefully, it’s doing more than collecting dust through my shelf. Yeah. Makes sense. Well, not only does it make sense, you know, I think about the future and I say, well, technology is now what it is and it’s made life easier and easier and compartmentalized people into separateness and little boxes and they’re not antisocial. They just don’t have any experience of other humans. So, it creates a whole other thing. And yeah, with all these emotions being our
43:43
big driver, right, it’s like what’s going to happen to people in this age when their jobs aren’t we’re, you know, they’re pairing the government down. It is clear with all these less jobs, there’ll be less money. But all these people, unless they’re all artists and we’re all going to buy art from each other or food and we’ll have enough food, but we everything’s not possible. So what is going to happen? I asked that in like real mystery. I don’t If you
44:14
have a crystal ball, bring it out. No, we should did have a free crystal ball. Yeah. But um I think the Buddhists have a good answer though. The Buddhists have, you know, um when they interview and they talk about Tibet and how the Chinese government is treating the people in Tibet and so forth, you know, how do you find peace in your heart when you have your people, you know, hurt the way they have been hurt? And the answer is that they stay within themselves. That in my heart, in my being, who I am
44:46
as a human being, I find a lot of peace. Um, I have sort of a general policy and, you know, you don’t have to buy it. I’m, you know, this is just me, okay? I work really hard to surround myself with people that are decent and honest and nice. And, you know, I’m going to come across people that want to take advantage of me. I know I’m going to find come across with people that are kind of stupid and you know they’re greedy and whatever it happens to be. But I just have self-respect and I just
45:18
put a wall there and I I wish him well but I don’t want to deal with them. I don’t want to get involved with them. I don’t want to make deals with them. I don’t want to Do you see what I’m saying? Have you been able to maintain that distance on an island when when pe when people want something from you that you don’t want to give them? It is being a trapped little world here on Maui has created a I don’t want to say kosanostra a sub community of and it’s not even wanters it’s people
45:52
there are two kinds of homeless or maybe as few kinds of homeless now right but there’s some that are homeless by design and they’re consciously is that evil I don’t know what do you call that I don’t No, it’s up to them. I mean, I I consider homeless just a condition. I, you know, I have to find out who that person is and why that person made choices that led to being homeless. Can you most help most people? Is there any program by example coordinate with um Maui Correctional Center to be able
46:28
to help? In my field, in my field, the area where we stay away from is um the antisocial personality disorders, the sociopaths. And what we found over history is that the more you try to help them, the more sophisticated they become. So, they know the the game, they can play the game and so forth and so on. So, you’re actually not helping them. You’re well, yeah, you are. You’re helping them destroy other people or take advantage of other people. given them tools. Yeah, exactly. So, but you
47:03
know, it’s really kind of interesting because most most of life is not that complicated. It you know, you can get those insights very easily after about two sessions, three sessions, maybe a month at the or at the most. People are pretty smart. They figure it out. But then the behaviors, how do you overcome the habits? That kind of stuff. change environment either change environment or you know uh practicing you know you know keep practicing even if you mess up just keep practicing and do the best you
47:36
possibly can but that behavioral component is the hard one to overcome. Yeah. Does it make sense? You get absolutely yeah and I you know um I had a lady a long long time ago who came to me and um you’ve heard of women helping women here, right? Sure. Okay. Well, they had a shelter for women over in in Georgia and they had a strict rules. If you come there and you need help, they’ll help you. If you leave, go back to the perpetrator, what you know, your husband, whatever, whatever that happens
48:07
to be. Can’t come a second time. You No, you can go a second time, but that’s it. That was the final straw. So, I had this lady that was referred to me because she just kept on knocking on the door and she’s already used up her, you know, one time, two times. and we sat together and I tried to help her as best as I possibly could. And at one point she said, “Yeah, I know it’s wrong. I know it’s wrong to go back to my husband, but you don’t understand, doctor. I can’t
48:35
help loving him.” And my response to her was, “Okay, I don’t want you to stop loving him. If that’s what you do, if that’s what you really feel in your heart to love him, that’s fine. I just want you to be safe. What is it that you need to do to be safe? And so I split it up. I, you know, you can continue feeling the love, but do things so that you don’t end up in the hospital again. Got through. Okay. Finally got through. But still, it, you know, it took it took a long time. Maybe
49:08
I’m not as good as I need to be, whatever. But we finally got to that point where she began to look at two separate things that you know just because you love someone doesn’t mean you have to live with that person. Does it make sense? Well, it makes sense. You know, I guess I’m a Jewish kid from New York. These kind of things. We were kids. We were, you know, we were doing when I hear about this coming later in life. I go back to the thing about stupid. We’re stupid because of environment. Do you find they follow the
49:39
lead from before? I you know I always wonder what it is that that creates this level of problem that they what do you find that it’s not in the book which I I wish I did put it in the book. We people are uh how do I put this? We’re not leaders as much as we’re followers. We like to be part of the crowd. We like to fit in. It’s very very important for us to fit in. There was a guy by the name of Mgrim who was Jewish and his theme was that after World War II that the Germans really are not all that bad. There may
50:15
be some bad apples but as a people they’re they’re not bad people and he wanted to prove that. So he came up with an experiment. What he did was he set up an experiment where um you had a teacher. Do we have enough time? Oh, we did. Okay. Yeah. I keep looking only because of my you know I’m like I’m right I’m I’m afraid I’m going to like have the wall suddenly. Okay. So you had a teacher okay and a student and the teacher would give questions the student had to answer the
50:46
question. If the teacher um if the the student gave the wrong answer then the teacher would give a shock a mild shock and there was a panel there and every time you you get a wrong answer you move up on the shock panel. Okay. So so from the left it’s mild on the right you had a skull and crossbones and everything. It says danger and all that stuff marked red. And so the whole idea was to see how far the person would go. Now the student was really not a student. He was not a subject. He was a stoogge. He was,
51:20
you know, he was a confederate. So he was part of the experiment, right? But the, you know, the teacher did not know he was the subject. And these poor people, they were told by someone wearing a white coat and everything, just keep going, just keep going, keep going. Even though the the student or the stoogge would start screaming like I have a heart condition, they’d stop this. Please stop this. They would just keep on going and keep on going. Now, he did this in New York, and the reason why
51:47
he did it in New York was to cut out all the, you know, to to take care of all the rough spots before he took it to to Germany. Well, guess what? The experiment never made it to Germany because he realized that following the authority of others and so forth is ubiquitous. It’s not just Germans, it’s everybody. And think about it, this was in Manhattan where everybody thinks that they’re independent thinkers, you know. So of all the places, you know, to find this kind of obedience, he found it. So what
52:18
are we going to do here in America? Are we going to have an unprecedented Well, think about this. Okay, I don’t know if this makes sense to you or not. Um, dictators are only dictators if people comply and they’re obedient. What if people that work for ISIS says, “I’m not going to go to this university and put this professor in handcuffs just because he disagrees with the government.” Now, I hear you, but you also talked like about when you think about Germany of those that remember
52:49
they say, “Look, um, that’s my neighbor, but someday they’re going to come for you. Here we are.” Is that same kind of concept? Yeah. Yeah. But basically just human, you know, I’m not going to shoot this guy because he’s protesting. What does it take? Well, it takes it takes you have to you have to overcome your DNA to not be obedient and you have to overcome the DNA to say, “Look, no, I’m not going to do this.” Just recently, this is well, I say recently, this is the
53:17
Vietnam War. I don’t know if you remember that, but I think you do. You’re my age, right? I sure do. Um, we we put up with a new policy. If your commander tells you to do something that is morally wrong, you have the right to say, “No, I’m not going to follow that order.” And that’s what it takes. That’s what it takes here. You know, you have all these things happening right now. People being, you know, incarcerated for no reason at all or, you know, um their cards, their green cards are taken away
53:48
from them. So, all that’s going to create a a time now that is unprecedented in our world. Then we all have to like you say take a look where are you happiest when you look within when you’re thankful for who and what you’ve got and where you are and the friends that you’ve got and the possibilities of doing better. I agree. We only have two minutes. The real two minutes. First of all, Santo Trioli, Dr. Santo Troli, thank you for coming. Pleasure. It’s my pleasure. I really enjoyed it. I hope that you’ll consider
54:23
not only coming back to me. We have a a lady, a doctor Valerie Simson who’s on Thursday at this time and it may be, you know, maybe soon or maybe whenever I think you should see because she’s a very interesting woman and she has a foundation called You Know More and um I’ve known her for, you know, 25 years since we were both children. Of course. Yeah, of course. And of course, you know, this wasn’t my Stephen Vanzant or Poncho Ponchovilla outfit. This is because of that uh giant
54:58
hole they made, the Trump coin slot. I was a gumball machine. And now I’m coming back and my everything will be perfect. I had a doctor at Kaiser, Ryan Liry, who did it just a great above and beyond the call of duty. Thank you, Dr. Liry. Not Timothy Liry. Ryan Liry. Nice man. Is he still around? Timothy Le? No, he’s gone. He’s gone. I had a friend of mine, Ed Elen, who was there in that crowd with Rahm Das and Timothy. You know, he was a Harvard professor. You know that, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
55:30
And u some of the instrument 40 seconds. Go ahead. Some of some of the instruments he invented um I’ve actually used for my dissertation. So, that’s pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. He was big on family. My first thing when I was in college was studying LSD. This is really something. 30 seconds. The psychology of stupid
