Jimmy Kimmel & Jason Schwartz show # 8; conversation & questions and answers about The Urantia Book, the religion of the life and teachings of Jesus.-#8 2013
Summary & Full Timestamped Transcript Below…
In this engaging and thought-provoking discussion, Jason and Jim explore the intersections of ancient religious beliefs, particularly focusing on Mithraism and its influence on early Christianity. They begin by defining “atavism” as the recurrence or reversion to ancestral traits or styles and suggest that certain religious traditions represent such atavistic tendencies. The conversation then delves into the origins and characteristics of Mithraism, an ancient mystery cult popular during the time of Jesus, which shared striking similarities with early Christian rituals and beliefs.
The hosts examine how Mithraism, originating in Iran and spreading through the Roman Empire, featured rituals such as baptism, communal meals, and annual festivals on December 25th—coinciding with what later became Christmas. They highlight the cult’s focus on a savior figure, Mithras, who battled evil and promised salvation and eternal life to followers, paralleling Christian narratives. They also discuss how Mithraism’s acceptance of militarism contrasted with Christianity’s pacifism and how the inclusion of women in Christianity ultimately contributed to its dominance.
Further, they critique the institutionalization and doctrinal development of Christianity, emphasizing that it amalgamated teachings from various sources: Hebraic ethics, Zoroastrian concepts of cosmic struggle, mystery cult rituals, and Hellenistic philosophy. They argue that Christianity, as it evolved, became more about a religion about Jesus rather than a religion ofJesus, losing sight of his original message centered on spiritual growth, universal brotherhood, and the fatherhood of God.
The conversation challenges literal interpretations of biblical stories and doctrines, such as creation in seven days and atonement through Jesus’s death, framing these as symbolic or misinterpretations rather than literal truths. They emphasize the importance of understanding Christianity’s historical context and evolution to grasp its current form and influence on global issues like nationalism and world peace.
Lastly, Jason and Jim invite viewers to engage deeper with these ideas, hinting at future live shows and discussions that will feature call-ins and dialogue with diverse perspectives, including fundamentalist Christians, to foster richer understanding and spiritual growth.
Highlights
- [00:39] Definition of atavism and its relevance to recurring ancestral traits and outdated religious styles.
- [05:48] Introduction to Mithraism as a major mystery cult that influenced early Christianity.
- [08:32] Mithraic rituals included sacramental meals, baptismal practices, and a December 25th festival.
- [14:42] ⚔️ Contrast between Mithraism’s militarism and Christianity’s pacifism; inclusion of women in Christianity as a key factor in its success.
- [17:59] Christianity described as a religion about Jesus rather than of Jesus, losing original spiritual teachings.
- [20:05] ❌ Challenge to core Christian doctrines such as Jesus dying for sins as untrue or symbolic.
- [23:21] Christianity’s formation as a complex blend of Hebraic, Zoroastrian, mystery cult, and Hellenistic influences.
Key Insights
- [00:39] Atavism as a Lens for Religious Repetition: The concept of atavism is used to frame how religious practices and beliefs often revert to or recycle ancestral forms, which can hinder progressive spiritual development. Recognizing these atavistic elements is crucial to moving beyond outdated dogmas and toward a more enlightened destiny. This insight invites viewers to critically evaluate inherited religious traditions and embrace new spiritual perspectives.
- [05:48] Mithraism’s Profound Influence on Christianity: Mithraism was a dominant mystery religion during the era of Jesus, sharing many thematic and ritualistic elements with Christianity—such as the savior figure, ritual meals, baptism, and a December 25th celebration. This challenges the traditional Christian narrative of originality and suggests syncretism where Christianity adopted and adapted popular religious motifs to appeal broadly within the Roman Empire. Understanding this helps contextualize Christianity’s development within ancient religious ecosystems.
- [08:32] Ritual Parallels and Symbolism: The Mithraic sacraments—eating sacrificial flesh, drinking blood, baptism, and worship on the birthday of the sun god—mirror Christian sacraments like Communion and baptism. These parallels underscore how religious symbolism evolves and how rituals serve to create communal identity and spiritual meaning. The shared emphasis on eternal life and judgment day beliefs highlights universal human concerns about morality, salvation, and afterlife across cultures.
- [14:42] ⚔️ Gender and Religious Dominance: Mithraism was initially male-only, while Christianity’s inclusion of women into full fellowship was a critical factor in its widespread acceptance and dominance. This reveals how social inclusivity can profoundly impact the success and longevity of religious movements. It also points to the evolving nature of spiritual communities and the importance of adapting to societal structures to maintain relevance and growth.
- [17:59] Distinction Between Religion About Jesus and Religion of Jesus: Christianity is critiqued as having become a religion about the historical figure of Jesus rather than following the original spiritual gospel he preached—focused on universal brotherhood, spiritual growth, and the fatherhood of God. This insight calls for a reevaluation of faith practices to reconnect with the core teachings and to move beyond rigid dogma and institutionalized religion. It highlights the difference between reverence for a figure and living according to their spiritual message.
- [20:05] ❌ Questioning Literal Biblical Doctrines: The hosts argue that some foundational Christian beliefs—such as the creation story and the doctrine of atonement—are not literal truths but rather allegories or misinterpretations. This challenges believers to think critically about scripture, encouraging a shift from blind acceptance to thoughtful inquiry. Such a perspective promotes a faith that is dynamic, evolving, and more aligned with reason and spiritual experience.
- [23:21] Christianity’s Syncretic Origins: Christianity emerged as a complex synthesis of multiple religious and philosophical traditions including Hebraic ethics, Zoroastrian dualism, mystery cult rituals, and Hellenistic philosophy. This multifaceted origin explains the diversity of Christian doctrine and practice and highlights the fluidity of religious identity over time. Recognizing this syncretism deepens understanding of Christianity’s historical development and helps explain internal theological tensions and varying interpretations.
Conclusion
Jason and Jim’s dialogue offers a rich, layered exploration of the historical, cultural, and spiritual roots of Christianity, particularly through the lens of Mithraism and other mystery cults. By unpacking atavistic religious tendencies, ritual parallels, and the evolution of Christian doctrine, they challenge conventional narratives and encourage a deeper, more nuanced understanding of faith. Their critique of literalism and institutionalization calls for a spiritual awakening grounded in truth, inclusivity, and universal brotherhood. The conversation invites ongoing inquiry and dialogue, promising further exploration that could foster greater clarity and spiritual maturity for seekers today.
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Aloha I’m Jason this is Jim you may wonder how we and so quickly change shirts well we’re ready for our next show we’re going to do about mithis the 25th of December our Christmas show that’s why Jim’s wearing his mythis shirt Merry Christmas I mean merry mythis that’ll be coming up but in the show that we were doing here I I wanted a definition of atavism which Einstein had spoken about so continue atavism one recurrence in an organism of a trait or character typical of an an
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typical of an ancestral form and usually due to genetic recombination B recurrence of or or reversion to a past style manner Outlook approach or activity second one that manifests atavism such as a throwback so ancestral or repeating things from before um I want to say not necessarily in a in a rut but doing the same historical so when when Einstein was talking about artivism I don’t have my glasses on you can see yeah well the recurrence the recurrence M um of a trait or character typical of an
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ancestral form a recurrence of a reversion to a past style manner Outlook approach or activity so the these past styles of uh Christianity for example have resulted in a lot of people getting divided and mistaught misled and just misinformed basically so the adisms U we’re talks about the ad adisms in each of us that stand in the way of a friendlier Destiny can only thus be rendered ineffective right so that change for us we have to look and see how we have in us a way that goes toward our ancestral toward things from the
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past and to see things happen we need to be looking outside of that box out of the old and look into the new that’s a great Point okay back to our story oh back to the story we were talking about what were we talking about Christmas coming up in our next show helloa everybody Aloha I’m Jason this is Jim we’re happy to be here I think this is shown number eight something like that I think this is our eighth in our series um what’s been fun is every time we do a new show we change positions and
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we change shirts so that each show is new content because there’s Al so much content in what we’re doing this is the Christmas show except I should say the mythis show got my Christmas shirt on Christmas myth shirt yeah I’m getting a little confused but you’re going to tell us he’s reading paper number 98 in the ran book which uh now from what you said which just you’re going to share that the 25th of December was the birthday of mithis who Paul from Bible Fame wrote about well what was say he wrote about
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he was influenced by him he was in Paul was influenced by the the U myth the mithraic religion oh what was the whole religion mithraism was the was the the most popular religion of the common people in Jesus’s day oh wow yeah well we’ll we we’ll be reading about that shortly okay more specifically but this is paper 98 titled the mesc teachings in the ocient didn’t we do didn’t we do a program on mesc or did we do a program on meis you mentioned MC is a guy that spoke to Abraham yeah he made the
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Covenant with Abraham I forget if we did that sure or not but anyhow the mesc teachings in the ocient were is where we’re taking this from today okay U there’s a section titled the mystery Cults there were three major mystery Cults which were popular in the times of Jesus and one was the frian cult of syil and her son atis another was the Egyptian Cult of Osiris and his mother Isis and third is the Iranian Cult of the worship of mythis as the Savior and Redeemer of sinful mankind that’s very similar to
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Christianity right sounds like to me well check this out now the cult of mythis the frian and Egyptian Mysteries eventually gave way before the greatest of all the mystery Cults the worship of mithis the mithraic cult made its appeal to a wide range of human nature and gradually supplanted both of its predecessors mithraism spread over the Roman Empire through the propagandizing of Roman Legions recruited in the Levan where this religion was the Vogue for They Carried this belief whever they went and this new religious ritual was a
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great improvement over the earlier mystery cults The Cult of mithis arose in Iran and long persisted in its Homeland despite the militant opposition of the followers of Zoro Aster oh by the time I’m just listening the so these were great theologic teachers oh yeah who had different opinions about God and the way life should be lived and were fighting between them and mithis was one of these Theologian one of people well that had a following here we go but by the time mithraism reached Rome it had become
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greatly improved by the absorption of many of zoroaster’s teachings it was chiefly through the mythra cult that Zoro Aster’s religion exerted an influence upon the later appearing Christianity the mythra cult portrayed a militant God taking origin in a great Rock engaging in Valiant exploits and causing water to gush forth from a rock struck with his arrows there was a flood from which one man escaped in a specially built boat and the Last Supper which mithis celebrated with the sun god before he
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ascended into the heavens this sun god or Saul Invictus was a degeneration of the ahura Mazda deity concept of Zoroastrianism mithis was conceived as the surviving champion of the sun god in his struggle with the god of darkness and in recognition of his slaying the mythical sacred bull mythis was made Immortal being exalted to the station of intercessor for the human race among the gods on high the adherence of this cult worshiped in caves and other secret places ing hymns mumbling magic eating
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the Flesh of the sacrificial animals and drinking the blood wow three times a day they worshiped with special weekly ceremonials on the day of the son God and with the most elaborate observance of all on the Annual Festival of mithis December 25th wow it was believed that the partaking of the sacrament ensured eternal life the immediate passing after death to the bosom of mithis there to T in Bliss until the Judgment Day on the Judgment Day the mithraic keys of heaven would unlock the gates of paradise for the
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reception of the faithful where upon all the unbaptized of the living and the dead would be annihilated upon the return of methis to Earth it was taught that when a man died he went before mithis for judgment and that at the end of the world mithis would summon all the dead from their graves to face the last judgment the wicked would be destroyed by fire and the righteous would reign with mythis forever that sure sounds like that sounds like Christianity over sure does it was at first a religion only for
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men and there were seven different orders into which Believers could be successfully initiated later on the wives and Daughters of Believers were admitted to the temples of the great mother which had joined the mithraic temples the women’s cult was a mixture of mithraic ritual and the ceremonies of the frian cult of Cil the mother of antis well so it’s interesting when I’m listening from my Approach and understanding Jesus and the words and teachings of Jesus have maintained and there’s more that that he said that
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isn’t accounted for in his Standard Bible but also that the religiosity the religions that go with it seem to have uh similar themes to the environment in which they were living so that that the the it’s like they took the best of everything to say yeah yeah to include everybody in their thing yeah 25th of December mythis how do you spell mithis m t h r a s mithis okay wow now this section six titled mithraism and Christianity this will give all you Christians out there an understanding of
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your roots prior to the coming of the mystery Cults and Christianity personal religion hardly developed as an independent institution in the Civilized lands of North Africa and Europe it was more of a family City State political and Imperial Affair the helenic Greeks never evolved a centralized worship system the ritual was local they had no priesthood and no sacred book much as the Romans their religious institutions lacked a powerful driving Agency for the preservation of higher moral and spiritual
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values while it is true that the institutionalization of religion has usually detracted from its spiritual quality it is also a fact that no religion has thus far succeeded in surviving without the aid of institutional organization of some degree greater or lesser accidental religion thus languished until the days of the Skeptics cynics epicurian and stoics but most important of all until the times of the great contest between mithraism and Paul’s new religion of Christianity during the 3r century after
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Christ mithraic and Christian churches were very similar both in appearance and in the character of their ritual the majority of such places of worship were underground and both contained altars whose backgrounds variously depicted the sufferings of the same who had brought salvation to a sin cursed human race always had it been the practice of mithraic worshippers on entering the temple to dip their fingers in holy water and they introduced this custom into the majority of the Christian churches in the vicinity of
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Rome well that’s that’s quite a a statement yeah so religions were taking and combining Doctrine into their words that’s and it’s interesting when you also consider how you know when Christians say that you know others are Cults they all say isn’t that what everyone says the other ones are cult well they’re talking about themselves yeah is is like inbreed from old old overlapping um content yeah right okay I’m sorry both religions employed baptism and took of the sacrament of
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bread and wine the one great difference between mithraism and Christianity aside from the characters of mythis and Jesus was that the one encouraged militarism while the other was Ultra Pacific mythra ism’s tolerance for other religions except later Christianity led to its final undoing but the deciding factor in the struggle between the two was was the admission of women into the full Fellowship of the Christian faith in the end the nominal Christian faith dominated the oxident Greek philosophy supplied the
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concepts of ethical Valu mithraism the ritual of worship observance and Christianity as such the technique for the conservation of moral and social values that’s interesting description the depth of what you talk about here deserves a lot more scrutiny so this is paper 98 in your Rancher book that’s right you guys know that um we want to see a call-in talk show so we’re going to be gearing up a crew and so if you’re interested in being part of our crew let us know you can contact uh Jim peace Inc
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maui.net maui.net p a CE i n c maui.net you can always find me you’ll see my credits up there too Jason dream.org um we are uh so glad to have your wealth of knowledge as we’re talking here this book really has been an eyeopener in so many different areas Jim yeah it’s it’s a it’s a book of Revelation which carries with it lots of realizations of oh my so who who wrote it how well the paper we’re reading here is written by AIS de of nebadon presented by aalis De of nebadon all the authors are superum
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beings these are not Mortals these are not human beings that have authored this book they’re all spiritual personalities that came here in 1934 1935 as part of a spiritual Commission of Truth revealers is that somehow explained in here too how bet it is yeah sure okay wow you got to really be dedicated but you’ve been reading this book now for years 423 years yeah right and so you’ve read it a few times and many times you really are a resource in better understanding and I mean when I
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come up with the ideas or something that’s going on you really are poting I can see it be exciting when people are able to call in and talk to you and be able to really fully explore things that you’re talking about well we’ve got some major Global problems in today’s world and and the only way to understand we have to come to know and understand what these problems are if we’re going to be able to resolve and and provide solutions to them Christianity is one of the major influences between us and
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World Peace nationalism and Christianity are the two major influences preventing the advance of civilization that’s a a lot of words nationalism and Christianity but Christianity not meaning the believing that Jesus not but Christianity being the religion what you saying well Christianity is a manifestation of the failure of the people of Jesus’s day to understand what he was teaching them okay Christianity is a is a manifestation of of the failure of Jesus to establish the spiritual Kingdom of Heaven in the
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hearts of the people of his day and age and so the concept of him coming again it’s the religion about him right not the religion of him see he wanted people to live the truth you know the truth and then if you live the truth you’re going to become Freer and Freer and happier and happier the more truth you discover in consequence of the facts you discover no it’s all part of growing up and the Christians need to grow up spiritually because they’ve they got hung up on the Bible and the false teachings in the
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Bible and and this this Revelation here Jesus made this book possible in order to help us discover the mistakes we’ve made and and embrace the truth that’s that’s given to us in its place what do you mean by false teachings well um the Bible teaches that God created the heavens and the Earth in seven days okay so no it’s not true just simply it’s not it’s not a fact it’s a belief well you know I I appreciate what you’re saying I it also says that Adam made or God made Eve out of Adam’s Rib
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sins and it’s just not true well that will be interesting we’re going to have a show on here we’re going to bring a I think we should have a show with a fundamental Christian what do you think anytime that be a good thing to do okay I bet you guys would like that too oh great that’s a please continue but I think that’s a good idea let’s so we’re going to invite someone to join us that’d be fun good good sure continue now section seven is titled the Christian religion a Creator son did not incarnate
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in the likeness of mortal flesh and bestow himself upon the humanity of urania to reconcile an Angry God but rather to win all mankind to the recognition of the Father’s love and to the realization of their sunship with God right that’s what you always are saying that that the Jesus was not here uh as portrayed he was here to get his message out not to have him and him self adored right that’s what we’re talking about yeah okay after all even the great advocate of the atonement Doctrine
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realized something of this Truth for he declared that quote God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself it is not the province of this paper to deal with the origin and dissemination of the Christian religion suffice it to say that it is built around the person of Jesus of Nazareth the humanly incarnate Michael son of nebadon known to yancha as the Christ the anointed one Christianity was spread throughout the Levan and oxident by the followers of this Galilean and their missionary Zeal equal that of their illustrious
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predecessors the Seth ites and salit as well as that of their Earnest Asiatic contemporaries the Buddhist teachers the Christian religion as a uranin system of belief arose through the compounding of the following teachings influences beliefs Cults and personal individual attitudes one the mesc teachings which are a basic factor in all the religions of oxident and Orient that have arisen in the last 4,000 years wow second the hebraic system of of morality ethics Theology and belief in both Providence
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and the Supreme Yahweh third the zoroastrian conception of the struggle between Cosmic good and evil which had already left its imprint on both Judaism and mithraism through prolonged contact attended upon the struggles between mythis and Christianity the doctrines of the Iranian Prophet became a potent factor in determining the theologic and philosophic cast and structure of the dogmas tenants and cosmology of the hellenized and latinized versions of the teachings of Jesus fourth the mystery Cults
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especially mithraism but also the worship of the great mother in The frian Cult even the legend of the birth of Jesus on yancha became tainted with the Roman version of The Miraculous birth of the Iranian savior hero mithis whose Advent on Earth was supposed to have been witnessed by only a handful of gift bearing Shepherds who had been informed of this impending event By Angels Bo that sure sounds the same and five the historic fact of the human life of Joshua Ben Joseph the real reality of Jesus of Nazareth as the glorified
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Christ the son of God six the personal Viewpoint of Paul of Tarsus and it should be recorded that mithraism was the dominant religion of Tarsus during his adolescence Paul little dreamed that his well-intentioned letters to his converts would someday be regarded by still later Christians as the word of God such well-meaning teachers must not be held accountable for the use made of their writings by lit successors that’s an important fact right there yeah there’s no reason to condemn good works
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because of someone’s view about perception of it yeah right exactly that’s good and seventh the philosophic thought of the helenistic peoples from Alexandria and Antioch through Greece to Syracuse and Rome the philosophy of the Greeks was more in harmony with Paul’s version of Christianity than with any other current religious system and became an important factor in the success of Christianity in the ocient as the original teachings of Jesus penetrated the oxident they became ocidental
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lied and as they became ocidental IED they began to lose their potentially Universal appeal to all Races and kinds of of men Christianity Today has become a religion well adapted to the social economic and political Moray of the white races it has long since ceased to be the religion of Jesus although it still valiantly portrays a beautiful religion about Jesus to such individuals as sincerely seek to follow in the way of its teaching it has glorified Jesus as the Christ the Messianic anointed one from
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God but has largely forgotten the Master’s personal gospel the fatherhood of God and the universal Brotherhood of all men and this is the long story of the teachings of mavena mesc on uran it is nearly 4,000 years since this emergency son of nebadon bestowed himself on Ur rancha and in that time the teacher ings of the priest of el Elon the most high God had penetrated to all Races and peoples and Metta was successful in achieving the purpose of his unusual bestow when Michael made ready to appear
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on Ur rancha the god concept was existent in the hearts of men and women the same God concept that still Flames a new in the living spiritual experience of the manifold Children of the universal father as the they live their intriguing temporal lives on the whirling planets of space presented by a milbe of never boy those are heavy words you know I think it’s just interesting we hope that you will um take the time to look and see this because what you said was just a quite a lot of words there there a lot
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to to digest um we’ve enjoyed being here I hope get chance to do this again oh I hope that one of these times soon you’ll see it live coming from the studio so you can ask questions and I think that would probably be uh another stage in our growth thank you for joining us it’s been good to be here today and if you’d like to join us sometime let us know maybe we can accommodate your desires and bring you on the show with us yeah that’s right let’s get people aloha aloha e
